About national discussions

[Tania ATL]

Dear forum visitors!

We, as a group of administrators of allthelyrics.com forum, want to open our position about some national quarrels that have been started in Slavic Languages group (topics 1 and 2). We've personally read them and that's what we think: we think, that every human being has a holy right for his/her own point of view, and a right to behave himself as he thinks is right and to act according to his principles... as long as he does not insult other people. And in these topics such insults were made. Someone believes that there is no Macedonian language.. someone is sure that it is. I'm not a professor, and I think sometimes a border between "separate language" and "separate dialect of other language" is really vague, no one can tell for sure. But as long as some people exist who think they they live in Macedonia and they speak Macedonian, no one has right to press him not to think so & not to act according to their consciousness, even if they'd live on the Moon First of all, we all are human. And we have freedom of mind, freedom of will, freedom of act. And that's great, let's use it, but let's try never to restrict other's freedom.

And it's not even a question, if this forum is a place for such things or not. I just hope all of you will think and decide, whether you want to give others freedom to express themselves as they want as long as they don't threaten your freedom of expression. It seems to me a thing, same to questions about right for homo-sexual orientation, or if the Tibet has a right to be a sovereign country not a province of China etc. A question of rights, and a question how mature we are.

Anyone who has something to say is welcomed to express his or her opinion.

We really don't know what to do with Maria. She's done a great job with translations. But she's trying to restrict other people thinking that they are Macedonian.

Maria, your word?

I think that 48 hours will be enough for everyone interested to explain his/her point of view. We're really interested to hear what you think.

[maria_gr]

Dear Tania ATL,

You're totally right. I shouldn't talk about this subject in the first place cause it's not the right place. But I did it cause I felt offended cause I'm a Macedonian.

Of course people is free to believe in whatever they want, but I'm of the opinion that they shouldn't offend the others. That's the healthy democracy. I'm sorry for saying that, but I strongly believe it. Their statements cannot offend and provoke the others.

Our dearest Lydia spreads that she's Macedonian and she's writing it in her location also, while the name of her country isn't clear yet. They believe that they are Macedonians, but the question is: Do the others recognize them as Macedonians? Now you'll say that many have recognized them, but I'll add: They have recognized them as a constitutional name and not as a Macedonian nation. Our Lydia spreads that she comes from the Macedonian nation, while this is completely wrong and it's really offending for Greek people and especially me cause I come from Macedonia.

Moreover, many global organizations as EU and UN don't recognize them as Macedonia, but as F.Y.R.O.M. (Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia). As everybody knows Greece is a member of European Union, so I just obey to my community by naming this country F.Y.R.O.M. So I believe and I please you to consider about it and to recomment to Lydia and her compatriots to behave more modestly and prudently.

You say that I'm "trying to restrict other people thinking that they are Macedonian". Have you ever considered that they do they same to me? Think about it and you'll understand.

I completely understand that it's a lyrics forum, but even a lyrics forum must have some limitations in order to be avoided such unpleasant situations.

Thanks for hearing me!

Yours maria

P.S. Do you think that it's right someone to call another nation gays? This woman did it to us as she called us "Gayreek"s and the worst thing is that she doesn't recognize that she said something wrong. I never insulted their country like that I could never say someone gay not even a whole nation! She could say whatever she wants about me, she did it indeed ("evil", "awful person", "frustrated", "stupid", "hypocrite", "animal", "awful creature" and so on), but she had not the right to inslult Greek in general. She didn't stop to me but she insulted other people too who were trying to convince her that her behaviour wasn't appropriate at all. Don't you think that she proved it that she's the real animal? All the post full of irony and insluts to the others. All the posts full of poison and evilness. I don't think she can make a civilized conversation. And as it's concerning me I'm willing to withdraw and to delete my account if my small, but right request doesn't being heard.

[Tania ATL]

My dear Maria, you know, I see no necessity in deleting your account & I don't want to do it unless you will directly ask me about it. But I really would like to ask you think over again what I've said.

It's not the question who is real Macedonian and who's fake. It's a question about letting other people be what they like to be. You and your friends think one way, she and some other people think just the opposite.

Personally I don't have an idea who's "more right". I just ask you to let other people be themselves and call themselves as they want to. They are doing no harm to you, they are not telling that your nation does not exist or that your language is not a language. And you do. They like their country to be called the same way you call yours - and let it be. You may think that they're strange, they will think same of you. But please, don't try to forbid them be themselves.

I think, this particular question is clear enough, but would like to avoid similar problems in future, on whatever basis they may arise. We all are different and that's great, that's not a reason to try to make all think similar...

[Spring]

Tania, I am new here but was beginning to wonder if I landed on the wrong place. Therefore, thank you very much for every word you've said on this matter! I agree! And I also have no opinion on the M. subject,

Maria, you don't give up, do you? I have read your posts in the two topics in translation forum as well as in my 'disappointed topic' and I can understand that you were raised in a certain way and that you have your believes but, don't you think that other people have the right to live their lives too?
Can't you just agree to disagree? I didn't see anyone saying that your Makedonia doesn't exist... and I never thought about the subject but I accept your Macedonian to be a dialect of Greek... I actually have no idea about that... To try to explain my position a bit more, for example, nobody can convince me that Serbian and Croatian are totally different languages! for Gods sake, something of the language used to be called serbo-croatian but, I have no intention to spend a second of my life arguing about that... if other people think differently, I dont care! It's not like their opinion will affect anything about me in any way... I understand everyone coming from this territory (more or less) and thats enough for me.
I've been trying for the past 16 years not to think about politics and seeing that there are still people who argue about something that has nothing to do with present makes me really sad!
Macedonia separated from my country and I never, for one second thought anything bad about the people who live there... I am absolutely not interested in games that politicians or historians play with innocent people and you should try to do the same - you will have one worry less in your life.
However, if you still choose to stress about whatever... you have the right...
I wouldn't interfere if I wasn't absolutely shocked with what I read yesterday...
I hope you will find your happiness (same goes for anyone with similar issues)

[maria_gr]

I see the point to all of you, but you didn't understand what I said. They stole a part of our history and that's enough for me. Moreover they want to take our Macedonia, the Greek Macedonian, cause they believe that it is theirs and that we took it? They believe that I'm a minority in my own country and that I'm enslaved to Greeks. For God's shake, my patience has limits. Their language is very similar with bulgarian, but think that Bulgarians came in this place on the Byzantine empire, many centuries after ancient Macedonians. This language didn't exist before. So the language of Ancient Macedonians was a greek dialect. It had insignificant differences from the other dialects, believe me cause I'm studying them in the university. And I still believe that they must be some limits, that's the healthy democracy. Why don't you put some limits? You should try this and as I said it's good for you a member to swear with the most terrible way other nations? At least I never swore them, even if they deserve it with the bad they did to us. You don't know how it is to steal your own history, to try to make theirs events, personalities and territories.

Anyway, I want to delete my acount, I think that I got tired here vainly. I did so many things for this forum and you cannot do me a favour which is totally fair. I don't ask anything crazy, I just ask some respect from the others and not to offend us. Now I'm disappointed too. I cannot be involved with this subject anymore, I'm on holiday and I cannot relax, they are ruined and my mood is awful, so please or accept my request or delete my account in order to find some peace in this wonderful place.

[SpudMunky]

Hi there! I completely agree with the opinion that everybody should be allowed free choice, and freedom of speech I mean that's what some countries are still fighting for! However I feel at the moment that peoples right to freedom of speech and free choice is being limited by arguments that are currently occurring. I feel that currently the forum is being made to feel uncomfortable and that people like Maria are trying to dictate what others are to say and think and this is causing far to many arguments between countries that are unneccessary. This is afterall a music forum, not a place for political discussions/arguments/tirades and all of this seems to just be taking over. In the end somebody isn't going to get there question answered because there's a petty argument going on thats not needed or a thread will get closed because they've put one word wrong in it and it's not fair on whoever that person may be! However this is just what I believe, and none of you may agree with my view, but I just thought that I'd express it. However I would just like to take this moment to say that no I am not having a go or a dig at anybody, I am not looking to make any enemies here, just to express my view on this topic.

[igrec]

Message for Tania Atl and Spring.

I've seen all the conversation here, I saw Tania analysed the verbal fight we /with "we" I mean myself, Lydia, Lagoudaki and Maria/.
I don't want to offend you Tania, you may be also user, also administrator; I believe is more important to read this.
What you said to Maria is right... this a lyrics' forum, not made for political discussions. You have right. But Lydia started the FIRST ! It's important to know this. Why didn't she stop when Lagoudaki told her nice ? No... She was more ironic, not also with her but with me too. She only know to be fake and to show people a wrong image of Maria. And I believe this , not only to say this, because Maria is my friend not anyone who I said "Thanks for lyrics" and she's "my friend". I guess if someone would tell something bad about you Tania, you stay indifferent ? Or about your friend ?When you SHE IS NOT LIKE THAT ? This is madness ! We are judgeg because this girl didn't do nothing more that to explain the Makedonian is a dialect of Greek (and not Gayreek) Language. Is hard to understand that ? And she not only said this but she came with arguments. What for to fight if a truth has even arguments ?
Lydia spoke about "gayreeks". What more you need to see what kind of person is she ? I tell you: this kind who likes to make trouble.
Maybe we were wrong. Maybe... But when Maria told her "ok, we finish this, we keep a friendship". You know what Lydia said ? "You insult me and now you want to be friends ?" What kind of atittude is this Tania ? Is still Maria's fault because she wanted to stop it ? What insults told Maria to her ? "Makedonian is a Greek dialect not a language". This is an insult ? Well those what are : "Animal. frustrated woman. etc" ? what are ? I guess those are the insults. Must I mention the Lydia's words about Maria'a friends ? You read them ...
Maria is the bad person because she wants a little respect (respect people, not money or land or oil or smth like that) ? But Lydia respected the Greek ? No... How can she speak like that ? Gays ? This nation who gave us (entire world) a lot of things we use today ? Romanians have problems too with HUngaruians, but never would here what Lydia said about Greeks, not for a Romanian, not for a Hunagarian. What is this Tania ? Why Maria should go ? Even you said Maria did here a great job. What did Lydia ?
I guess is useless to continue because more people show their faces after Maria helped them.
What I don't understand is that even NOW MARIA IS STILL THE GUILTY ONE...

[lollipop]

I took some time today, to read all old posts, and to find it out, where this all started. And I found out more ugly posts, more insults, more fights.

This site is about music. Some members have forgot about it...

You may think, what do this Lollipop know, coming here, and saying things like that. But you know, I don't want to read all this, what I just have read. There are other forums for this kind of arguments. Political forums.

Here the members are trying to get lyrics or translations, not politics. Please try to respect this.

This started already some time ago, members have made posts, that are very offensive, and to be honest, I would of got angry myself too at some comments; that's how bad some are... Getting too personal is the worst ones. Telling in forums, how "horrible personality" someone has: that is childish, immature and sad.

You can discuss this, and defend this, and wonder, who is good and who is bad. It does not matter, because there is a pot and a kettle. "The Pot Calling The Kettle Black" is the right saying, isn't it.

And that's why I think this: These kind of pointless arguments should be closed as soon as they start. This arguments leads to nowhere. Has this all insulting made things somehow better now? I don't see that.

As much as I am pro every humans right to say what he/she wants, then please, did you consider all other members, who come here for the music, and who never want to ask another question here, because of this heated fights?? And I believe, most members are here for music...

And I do know, what I am talking about, because I come from a country, that has a sad history too. Does that give me right to insult others? No. Do you see me jumping on members, that come from country that has history parallels with my country? No. Never. Mainly, because I don't care about races, politics, wars, sexual orientations, or colors. But also, because: this is not the right place to express our political standings, or practice our beliefs at cost of other members. This is music forums.


Peace to you all.

[maria_gr]

Hi all,

First of all I want to say that I'm not Maria. I'm lagoudaki and I use her account coz as you already know you banned me. I don't know for what reason, I just wanted to protect Maria from Lydia's unfair behaviour. If you have read the posts she should be banned and not me. I never indsulted her, but she did it to me, Maria (first of all) and Sosolikos. Do you want to have here people like that, who insult the others with the most terrible way (Gayreek)? I wouldn't be here anymore coz this forum isn't what I expected, I thought that there are fair people, but you're not fair at all. Anyway, Maria asked me to come, coz she is sick and she cannot do it by herself. Not only you ruined her holiday, but she's sick coz of you guys. She stayed all the night outside sitting beside the sea crying and now she has high fever. Ok, that's what I wanted to say. Now I tell what Maria wants:

"Dear friends

I know that I caused some problems, but I didn't do it because I like arguing or something like that (i hate arguing). I just wanted to correct some mistakes. It's mistake to say macedonia this country and this language and I said that macedonian is greek dialect, but Lydia reacted like an animal insulting me. I wanted to stop it as you already know, but she said that I'm hypocrite. None have ever insulted me in the past like she did, because everybody who knows me knows how calm I am and how much I worth. I didn't speak without knowing anything about this subject, but believe me dispite my age, I know many many many things, more than others who are older than me. And especially I know many things about my country and history says that Macedonia was and is Greek. Stravon said "Because Macedonia is Greece too". Alexander the Great said to Atheneans "We speak the same language, we believe in the same Gods, we have the same customs, so we are all Greeks", also he left a gift to the Gods and there was a note "From all the Greeks except from Spartans" (he considered himself Greek too), he united all the Greek tribes together for a same purpose to spread the Greek culture to the rest known world. Persians called Macedonians as "the Greeks with the hat", cause Macedonians were wearing something like hat on their heads. Alexander in Greek means someone who defends the men. Filippos means someone who loves horses. Voukefalas (the horse of Alexandros) means head of an ox. Aristotle means best and perfect. Thessaloniki (sister of Alexandros) means victory of Thessalians. Do you think that these words have meaning in their language (which they say that it's Macedonian)? Macedonians were participating to Olympic Games and as everybody knows it wasn't allowed to participate someone non Greek. So Macedonians were Greeks in order to participate in this event. Don't you think? I can say more things but I'll fill pages and pages and pages, so I'll stop here. I think that these are enough to understand who has right and who has not. And if you want to be fair you must put some limits, cause it not fair to say whatever you want offending the others. And when Lydia says that she's Macedonian is an offence to me cause I'm true Macedonian.

And now I want to beg you to delete my account. I don't belong here. As I said I'm very disappointed cause I offered so many things, I stayed so many days and nights translating and that's the appreciation to accuse me cause I just wanted to correct a flagrant injustice. I never wanted to become a moderator, that's doesn't show appreciation for me. In fact I used few times moderator's privileges, I moved a thread from the lyrics request to translations forum and I closed these two threads as a request from a girl. Lydia behaved like possessed, so opened them again. Appreciation for me is to undertand the others and you didn't show understanding to me and my actions. I don't defend my actions, cause I don't need to defend them. My conscience is clean and it will remain clean. I did nothing so bad, I never insulted badly the others. Maybe I said that they deserve nothing, but when someone is angry then he could say things that he doesn't believe. In contrary she believe all the things she said and she didn't ask sorry to me and all of my compatriots. I did it, I apologized. So you can see the difference of the level. I'm just 19 years old you could say that I misbehaved cause of my youth, but she is older than me and you know what she said. I'm more mature than she is. I realized my mistakes, I accept them, I appologize and I regret. So I appologize again not only from Lydia but from all of you who were witnesses of this bad scene. And I ask a last thing from you, I want to delete my account.

Thanks"

There is no need to say something more. Maria said them all. Bye!

[maria_gr]

Originally Posted by lollipop

Telling in forums, how "horrible personality" someone has: that is childish, immature and sad.

Now you know who is immature. Lydia said that Maria is evil, awful/horrible person and she was trying to convince me. That's realy sad. I know Maria for 7 months and I mean personally. We live in the same city, we spend time together. She is so clever and sweet, but never mind you don't know her and you cannot appreciate her. When she'll read what I've just written she'll be angry with me, coz she doesn't like to be praised from the others, she is so modest. So, I don't want to continue it coz you don't know her and you cannot understand. I feel sorry for you coz you keep here persons like Lydia.

[Spring]

Me again...
I'm definitely very new here so... didn't have the chance to read discussions older than few days ago but I've heard enough.
You just don't understand one thing - nobody who is on a forum like this wants to hear another word about the M. issue!
I am sure nobody has anything against anyone personally so - just give up and let people believe what they want to believe!

[igrec]

Dear Administrators and Super moderators and so on...
Shame on you ! Shame on you ! Shame on you !
How could you ban Lagoudaki ? How could you be so ... narrow-minded ? What did this girl ? what ?!?! Explain it....
If we all would be like Lydia it would be perfect !
I'm tired to see so many stupids here pretending themselves smart !
You should apologyze Maria for 1000 times !
Want more words ? You don't deserve them !
And you know something ? Ban me too. Oooh, Delete my account !
I'm full of nerves 'cause I never thought you would be so !
What you did to Maria is unforgivible !
Bye !

[veronika_pooh]

Ok,I think this thread should be closed too...it's not solving any problems just bringing new ones...I just don't know what more to say...really don't want to take part of this...it must stop...MUSIC PEOPLE!!!

[alp_er]

yes pls stop... let thme be whatever they want,macedonian,greek..what da hell...

[veronika_pooh]

10X,alpFor supporting me!!!This is getting out of control.Stop it!

[Tania ATL]

Ok, thanks to anyone who's shared his/her opinion with us. It was really useful & interesting to read. So, now I, as a owner of this topic have full right to close it, and I see that 48 hours was more than enough for everyone to tell something.

But first to it I'd like to say to Maria - dear, I really don't see any necessity in deleting your account. If you chose to be the one offended, you can stop coming here... but believe me, it's not what most of people here want to happen. What I tried to tell you, and others who took part in this flame, I hope so much you will let yourself hear it, is that no one can offend you... It's you who chose to be offended, or not to take the thing which can be treated as offense. This is what seems to me the way of strong & mature personality.... All of this was my personal opinion, as a visitor of AllTheLyrics.com's Music Forum.

And as Administrator I have to say that we decided to close this topic also & to delete all offensive posts, because we think that it all has no connection to music & can only confuse visitors who come here for music... And we're starting a new sub-Forum, specially for such things you'd like to say to community, but which are not concerned with music - General Discussion (GD). And I think this topic should go there first.
Also we'd like all visitors who thought they came to a wrong place to excuse us... Let music be music, the main thing on this forum. And with everything else - welcome to GD