About Greek grammar

[dya]

Ευχαριστω, Μαρια

Ποιa είναι στην εικόνα από τον τοίχο; Η εικόνα που είναι πάνω στον τοίχο, φυσικά!

Now correct me if I'm wrong:
Xiurell also referred to:

μέσα σε...
έξω από....

μπροστά σε....
πίσω από....

If with the first pair, the explanation with the objects touching eachother or not is available, with the second pair it's not.

Το κρασι ειναι μεσα στο μπουκάλι. The wine is actually touching the bottle.

Το μπουκάλι ειναι έξω από το καλάθι. The bottle is outside of the basket, not touching it.

But in these cases:

Το δέντρο ειναι μπροστά στο σπίτι.
Το δέντρο ειναι πίσω από το σπίτι.

there's no contact.

So, in order to remember them easily, I concluded that the, let's say "positive" ones go usually with σε and the "negative" ones go with από.

"Positives", because they refer to up, in, in front
"negatives" because they refer to down, out, in the back.

They are not really positives and negatives but it is a way to remember them more easily if categorized like this.

Maria?

[maria_gr]

I was talking only about the pairs πάνω σε, πάνω από. Now I'm really confused, cause we don't learn this at school. We just know them!

μπροστά από, μπροστά σε
η ληστεία έγινε μπροστά στα ίδια μου τα μάτια (=the robbery took place in front of my own eyes)
η πολυθρόνο βρίσκεται μπροστά απ' το τζάκι (=the armchair is in front of the fireplace)

πίσω στο, πίσω από
ο Γιώργος είναι πίσω στην αυλή (=George is behind, at the yard)
ο Γιώργος είναι πίσω απ' το δέντρο (=George is behind of the tree)

έξω στο, έξω από
ο Γιώργος είναι έξω στην αυλή (=George is outside, at the yard)
ο Γιώργος είναι έξω απ' το σπίτι (=George is out of the house)

κάτω στο, κάτω από
o Γιώργος είναι κάτω στην κουζίνα (=George is downstairs in the kitchen)
ο Γιώργος είναι κάτω απ' το τραπέζι (=George is under the chair)

[dya]

I read your examples, but I think in this cases the expressions are not the same, gramatically speaking.

Let me tell you why:
πάνω σε + κάτω από
μέσα σε + έξω από
μπροστά σε+πίσω από

are in themselves fixed expressions, if we use them for the primary meaning.

If we want to say that something is in we must use μέσα AND σε. We can't use μέσα alone. The same goes with the others.

While in your examples, in the sentences:
ο Γιώργος είναι πίσω στην αυλή
ο Γιώργος είναι έξω στην αυλή
o Γιώργος είναι κάτω στην κουζίνα

these are not fixed expressions anymore. Gramatically speaking in these sentences we have appositions:
ο Γιώργος είναι πίσω στην αυλή

-Ο Γιώργος είναι πίσω.
-Που πίσω?
- Στην αυλή.

-Ο Γιώργος είναι κάτω
-Κάτω... που!?
-Στην κουζίνα.

But I have to admit, I can't understand the choice of words for this sentence:
η πολυθρόνο βρίσκεται μπροστά απ' το τζάκι.

Why isn't it: μπροστά στο τζάκι ?

[maria_gr]

Uff I don't know... I'm really sick now, I have fever, stomach ache and head ache. If I survive, we'll talk about this later...

[Ane]

My book "Επικοινωνήστε ελληνικά" says that

δίπλα and κοντά always are with στον/στην/στο
πίσω and μακριά always are with από τον/την/το ,
μπροστά and απέναντι can be with στον/στην/στο or with από τον/ την/το

Ηταβέρνα είναι δίπλα στο φαρμακείο.
Το σινεμά είναι κοντά στην πιτσαρία.
Το ταχυδρομείο είναι πίσω από την τράπεζα.
Το παάρκινγκ είναι μακριά από το σουπερμάρκετ.
Ο φούρνος είναι απέναντι από το σπίτι μου = Ο φούρνος είναι απέναντι στο σπίτι μου
Το περίπτερο είναι μπροστά από τον κινηματογράφο = Το περίπτερο είναι μπροστά στον κινηματογράφο

And πάνω από and πάνω στον/στην/στο have different meaning as Maria and Dya said

[dya]

Axx, Maria! I'm sorry to hear you're so sick. I've been like that myself all this week and I'm still not ok, so no need to tell me more. We'll talk about grammar when we feel better

Ane, thank you for the examples, but your very last two sentences are what bothers me:
Το περίπτερο είναι μπροστά από τον κινηματογράφο = Το περίπτερο είναι μπροστά στον κινηματογράφο

Well...anyway...we'll see about this later

[xiurell]

Gracias Maria, ahora entiendo el primer par de adverbios κάτω/πάνω

Pero no entiendo el resto muy bien

Espero que te mejores pronto, un abrazo

dya the negative and positive thing is a good idea to remember but then came Maria with the 'η πολυθρόνο βρίσκεται μπροστά απ' το τζάκι'

[dya]

Originally Posted by xiurell

dya the negative and positive thing is a good idea to remember but then came Maria with the 'η πολυθρόνο βρίσκεται μπροστά απ' το τζάκι'

Yeah, just when everything started to make sense! LOL!

But no problem, cause afterward, Ane came with
Το περίπτερο είναι μπροστά από τον κινηματογράφο = Το περίπτερο είναι μπροστά στον κινηματογράφο

and the sign "=" made me believe they may mean the same?!?!

So, in the end, my theory is not THAT bad

Maria, are you feeling any better?

[xiurell]

to make clear to me in summary

Κάτω/πάνω have different meaning using από or σε

μπροστά από = μπροστά σε

And for all the rest we must apply your positive/negative rule

[dya]

I believe that's the closest point we can come to with these rules

Now, if it's completely wrong, I believe someone will enlighten us eventually

[mesutsuat]

hi
i am new here and i study Ancient Greek Language and Literature.
so i may request help from you about grammar.
thanks. good luck...

[LyricsFan]

Originally Posted by maria_gr

Uff I don't know... I'm really sick now, I have fever, stomach ache and head ache. If I survive, we'll talk about this later...

get well soon maria angel!!!!!!!! i like u to know i pray for u to get well as fast as its possible cause u shouldnt suffer any illness after all this help u do for us here!!!!
u r the best!!!! hey why there isnt a "kiss" smiley!!!! it should b so u could feel warmer with kisses!! rest best and come back soon

[maria_gr]

Thank you guys, I feel better. I've made a research and I found out that there's not any rule. You can use them as you want, but be careful cause we use the preposition από when we want to give the position of an object in space toward the other object. Eg. Το σπίτι μου είναι πίσω από την εκκλησία (=my house is behind the church).

[dya]

Ευχαριστουμε, Μαρια

I'm glad to know you feel better

[xiurell]

Muchísimas gracias, María

Me alegro que ya te hayas recuperado

Un fuerte abrazo

[operafantomet]

Originally Posted by Panthir

A)First- there is no evidence about any race or people with the name Indo-European.
This is something that the German archeologists made up at the 19th century because they didn’t want to say that Greek language was the mother language and because German Nazis wanted to think they are the better race and so Greeks could never be older than them and that Germans didn’t come from Greeks.
This is common knowledge today.

I must object. The term "indo-European" doesn't mean that someone thought it was once a people, language and/or land called "indo-Europe". It is a constructed term trying to describe why there are so many similarities between Aryans + the Indian language of Sanskrit on one side, and of the Anatolian and early languages in Europe on the other side. Foundational words can be traced travelling from the so-called "Fertile Crescent" and to Europe. So the main theory is that there must have been a common origin someplace, somewhere. And alas - Hittian and Sanskrit is traced to be elder than most of the European equivalents (even the beautiful ancient Greek), so we cannot claim that Greek was the source of the European languages.

The crazy Germans you refer to definitely adapted parts of this theory - they claimed that the Aryans were the original Indo-Europeans, hence Hitler's love for the "arian race"... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryanism . They also had these high-flying theories about GERMAN being a direct follower of the aryans, and therefore purer in blood and language - failing to understand (or ignoring) the actual meaning of the theory. The nazi version of Arianism is abuse of science, nothing more.

The indo-European explanation of languages was first discussed in the 16.th century (hence it can't be blamed on the nazis....), is well documented in newer, well-researched books, and gives by far the best theory on the common words and grammar in languages used in the so-called "Fertile Crescent" (between Turkey and India) and Europe.

So yes, I disagree with you on that point. But I agree with much of the other stuff you wrote.

maria_gr, thanks a LOT for posting the stuff you've posted. I visited the Greek island of Lesvos/*****s in summer 2007, staying there for a month because of philosophy studies. I've been used to kope rather well in the languages of other countries I've visited (I'm from Norway, hence understanding the basics in most Germannic languages. I also learned English and French at school, hence I've managed well in English and the Latin languages. And by this I mean that I know greetings and can order food at restaurants and stuff... Nothing more). But Greek? Totally different from everything I knew. The times I THOUGHT I understood what people said, I was way off. I was thinking Germannic and/or Latin. "NEPO"? Black, of course. Nero in Latin. Erm..... no.... "water".....

I decided to at least be able to READ Greek, and I achieved that after two weeks. I've also learned basic phrases and words, but I often wonder about minor stuff and I have no-one to ask. I'll hang out here a bit int he future, because you share everyday words I don't find elsewhere, as well as grammar and stuff which is easier to understand through your explanations than in dictionaries. Thank you SO much for your effort.

ETA: I love how this site is censoring the Norwegian spelling of Lesvos (Les-b-os)! Hahaha.

[maria_gr]

I totally agree with you. The word Indo-European describes the geographic area in which the languages have similar linguistic characteristics. So it refers to the terminal geographic borders in which the members of this family live. It is believed that in the past existed one common language, the mother language, and later this pure language broke into many others. Thus, greek, latin, german etc. are brothers. Many believe that latins have taken as loan many greek words, but we have never thought that maybe they didn't take them from us, but as Indo-Europeans have similar words to express vital necesities.

Ex. μήτηρ (anc. gr.: attic) - mater (latin) - matar (indic) - mutter (german)
μάτηρ (anc. gr.: doric)
πατήρ (anc. gr.) - pater (latin) - patar (indic) - vater (german)
εστί (anc. gr.) - est (latin) - asti (indic) - ist (german)
νυξ (anc. gr.) - nox (latin) - nak (indic) - nacht (german)

operafantomet: First of all I want to welcome you to the forum and second that we're all glad to help you.

[operafantomet]

Thanks for the welcome greeting!

A quick question: are there any EASY way to turn on Greek alphabet on computers, or do I have to go via a website? I can easily switch to Arabic (وشاوخي!) or American keyboard, so I hoped something similar would exist for Greek letters. I have a Mac G4 with Mac OS 10.4, if that is of any relevance....

[omorfi]

Hm, strange.. Didn't Greek show up as well? I can switch to Greek, but I had to add it as a keyboard first.

[kat]

Can someone post a list of Cypriot words? I'm interested in the diffrences!
oh and bonyatiko ? language from Embona ... can someone teach me ? lol

[maria_gr]

I'm not the appropriate person for that, τhe only thing I know is that they use -ν a lot and that they have archaic endings.
Here you can understand the differences between cypriot and greek words.

Embona? If I'm right, Embona is a village in Rhodes. I don't know if they speak their own dialect, but for sure they don't speak another language.