Questions about English language & grammar

[Orwa]

You're completely right miss D., you never been wrong

[MaresLejanos]

You're so sweet friend!! Thank you

[jandros]

Originally Posted by Spring

[color=Black]I don't think Russians use «», do they? It must be some keyboard shortage lol ....

Actually I've wondered about that too ... maybe it's an old practice that is changing? ... but a Russian friend from Siberia uses «» .... so I'm confused, I don't know!

[jandros]

Originally Posted by MaresLejanos

... I guess in English it's the same, it's used when you're quoting someone else's words or phrase, and you want to mean exactly his/her words... Am I wrong?

Mares mi amiga, sí, que es verdadero. To quote something that a person said or wrote, if we want to repeat the same exact words, we use "..."

[MaresLejanos]

My dear friend, I've just read something in "Ortografía" pdf from RAE (Real Academia Española). It says that it's the same to use «» and "", both are correct. But it adds, that when a you are going to reference something said or written before, and in its content will be a "" inside to remark a word, then we should use: «» with the "" inside... For example:

Pepe writes: I don't want to "meet" him there.

And I want to quoe Pepe, then I write:
Pepe said: «I don't want to "meet" him there.»

Well... In my language we can use both of them, it's nice to know it, even when people do not know these symbols «».... And both of them is to quote something said or written...

Do you have it («») in English?

[jandros]

Originally Posted by MaresLejanos

....Do you have it («») in English?

Nope, English doesn't use those symbols at all. I had never even seen them until my Russian friend sent an email, and then I had to figure out what they meant ... and btw, the symbols «» are used for parenthesis (), not for quotes ... I think .... actually my memory is failing me now ... I think Russian quotes are also like the symbols that Spring mentioned, „ '' ... but again I might be wrong, so now I need to go back and study

[MaresLejanos]

Originally Posted by jandros

Nope, English doesn't use those symbols at all. I had never even seen them until my Russian friend sent an email, and then I had to figure out what they meant ... and btw, the symbols «» are used for parenthesis (), not for quotes ... I think .... actually my memory is failing me now ... I think Russian quotes are also like the symbols that Spring mentioned, „ '' ... but again I might be wrong, so now I need to go back and study

LOL I have more symbols than you hehehehe

We have the single quotes: ', but we almost don't use it, and you use it all the time. The only one case where I found it, is to give the meaning of a word in Spanish:

Noon: ('midday') Twelve o'clock in the daytime.

But just in Spanish it has this usage. In English you have it everywhere...

Well, every language has got its issues, I couldn't even imagine my self learning other languages with a different alphabet!!!, Y could learn German, French, English, Portugues, Italian, Turkish... But I can't think to learn new letters, such as: Irish alphabet, Arab alphabet, Chinese, Japanese , Cyrillic alphabet, Greek alphabet.... Wooow... there are too much to learn over there!!!

I'll continue with English by now, I think it's much easier like the others with different alphabets... Even though I'm doing a mess while writing now

[Spring]

Originally Posted by jandros

Nope, English doesn't use those symbols at all. I had never even seen them until my Russian friend sent an email, and then I had to figure out what they meant ... and btw, the symbols «» are used for parenthesis (), not for quotes ... I think .... actually my memory is failing me now ... I think Russian quotes are also like the symbols that Spring mentioned, „ '' ... but again I might be wrong, so now I need to go back and study

It's simply because some Cyrillic keyboards have «» instead of " "
We also don't really use them .. and my Serbian Latin keyboard on this PC also doesnt have „ which is driving me insane

[MaresLejanos]

Originally Posted by Spring

We also don't really use them .. and my Serbian Latin keyboard on this PC also doesnt have „ which is driving me insane

HAve you tried the ASCII code of it?


I find it's alt+132 (with the left "alt" and the numbers pad, not the number of avobe the letters, and with the numlook enabled)
http://www.ascii-code.com/

But it doesn't work in my keyboard...

[jandros]

Spring, yeah, I guess the keyboard is the "key" to everything ... no pun intended

Originally Posted by MaresLejanos

LOL I have more symbols than you hehehehe

We have the single quotes: ', but we almost don't use it, and you use it all the time. The only one case where I found it, is to give the meaning of a word in Spanish:

Noon: ('midday') Twelve o'clock in the daytime.

Good question: As far as I know, there is only 1 "official" use for single quote ' in English: Single quotes are used inside of double quotes, to indicate a quote within a quote. If you quote Spring as saying "some Cyrillic keyboards", then I might quote your quote like this: Mares wrote, "Spring says, 'some Cyrillic keyboards' have those symbols." That's an awkward example, but I hope you understand

[MaresLejanos]

Thanl you Jandros . I guess I probbably do it "intuitively". I've found another difference between your language and mine... If you have a quoted text and it has got a "." before the the last ", you start the next sentence in Uppercase and not other puntuaction symbols is needed... Like here:

Originally Posted by jandros

.... Mares wrote, "Spring says that 'some Cyrillic keyboards' have those symbols." That's an awkward example, but I hope you understand

In Spanish though, we have to add the puntuaction symbil after the ", even when the previeus quote has its point:

"...ya no sería lo mismo sin él.". Sin embargo, ella siguió...

[jandros]

I corrected a slight error in my last post: I removed the word "that", because it's a little misleading. When someone's exact words are quoted, no conjunctions are needed. But if I wanted to paraphrase, instead of quoting exact words, then I would use the conjunction "that" ..... Spring wrote that a few Cyrillic keyboards have those symbols ... slightly different, not the exact words

Spring, hope you don't mind being the object of this English lesson ...

Mares, you're welcome, and thank you for the Spanish lesson

[MaresLejanos]

You're welcome . Even when I'm going out of topic with Spanish grammar in this thread

I know the use of "that" when refering something said by other, but not the exactly words.

Spring must be feeling proud of being the object of our examples . hehe

[jandros]

Mares, about the period ..... actually this is my preference, although it might be wrong: If I quote something that does not end in a period, I prefer to put the period after the last quote mark, outside the actual quote ... maybe this is what I was taught in school, long ago, but I don't remember now .... if I'm not quoting a period, a whole sentence, I don't like to include it within the quotes. But I don't think anyone else who does this like me ... so maybe I'm just weird

[MaresLejanos]

Do you mean period for "..." ?

We use it inside quotes when the text is too long and we want to refer just a short part of it, but at the same time we want to reflex that what we are quoting is part of long text and has a context... Example, I have this long text: (copied and pasted from wiki now):

"In thermodynamics, the internal energy of a thermodynamic system, or a body with well-defined boundaries, denoted by U, or sometimes E, is the total of the kinetic energy due to the motion of molecules (translational, rotational, vibrational) and the potential energy associated with the vibrational and electric energy of atoms within molecules or crystals. It includes the energy in all of the chemical bonds, and the energy of the free, conduction electrons in metals.

One can also calculate the internal energy of electromagnetic or blackbody radiation. It is a state function of a system, and is an extensive quantity. The SI unit of energy is the joule although other historical, conventional units are still in use, such as the (small and large) calorie for heat.

One can have a corresponding intensive thermodynamic property called specific internal energy, commonly symbolized by the lower case letter u, which is internal energy per mass of the substance in question. As such, SI units of specific internal energy would be joule/kilogram. If intensive internal energy is expressed on a per mole basis, then it could be referred to as molar internal energy and the units could be joule/mole."

And I want to refer just a short sentences inside it, and then I write:

Wikipedia says: "...If intensive internal energy is expressed on a per mole basis, then it could be referred to as molar internal energy and the units could be joule/mole"

I can't find a good example right now...

[TheNuttyOne]

« and » are used like " and ", but the popularity of that symbol has been falling. " " / „ ” are becoming more popular (mostly younger people use these symbols).

P.S. what does this have to do with English BACK ON TOPIC EVERYONE

[jandros]

Mares, I'll explain what I meant by using something from your wiki quote. First, quoting an entire sentence: "It includes the energy in all of the chemical bondds, and the energy of the free, conduction electrons in metals." I include the period inside the quote, because the period is definitely part of the original context. But if I quote only part of that sentence, I might do it like this: "It includes the energy in all of the chemical bonds ...". I put the period outside of the quote, just to end my sentence, because there is no period in the part that I quoted. Of course it's also more readable to separate the "..." from the period

But about the period, I think this might only confuse people. It's not important, and I think I do it differently than everyone else

My example also answers your first question: In English (US English at least) it is necessary to use "..." if the entire sentence is not quoted. In common practice the sentence is the limit, the determinant. In your example, in red, most English-speakers will not include the "..." because it is a quote of a complete sentence. But I prefer your way, because it suggests that the part which precedes your quote might be important too

[jandros]

Originally Posted by TheNuttyOne

« and » are used like " and ", but the popularity of that symbol has been falling. " " / „ ” are becoming more popular (mostly younger people use these symbols).

P.S. what does this have to do with English BACK ON TOPIC EVERYONE

Well, thank you for clearing that up NuttyOne

Now please stop yelling at me!!
j/k

[MaresLejanos]

Originally Posted by TheNuttyOne

1 - « and » are used like " and ", but the popularity of that symbol has been falling. " " / „ ” are becoming more popular (mostly younger people use these symbols).

2 - P.S. what does this have to do with English BACK ON TOPIC EVERYONE

1 - It's the same with Spanish, people, especially younger ones are losing the use of «», I dare to say that they don't even know that it exists in my language. However, puntuaction points and other like these: «», "", ' ', !,?; are important to comunicate correctly... I have one you don't have by the way , an up-side downs symbol for this one "?": ¿ hehehe

2 - We like to mess-up the thead

[Spring]

Originally Posted by MaresLejanos

HAve you tried the ASCII code of it?


I find it's alt+132 (with the left "alt" and the numbers pad, not the number of avobe the letters, and with the numlook enabled)
http://www.ascii-code.com/

But it doesn't work in my keyboard...

We can easily assume that this has something to do with English: I have no idea whatsoever how to use the ascii codes lol

But to get serious about the topic... I just realized recently that I have no idea what's the right way to say in English when someone is putting clothes on someone else.. like, is it correct:

She dressed her daughter in a red dress
The coroner dressed the dead man in a tailcoat

Or I have to use the word "put" in such context?

PS
jandros, I don't mind being the object of your lesson lol

[jandros]

Originally Posted by Spring

We can easily assume that this has something to do with English: I have no idea whatsoever how to use the ascii codes lol

But I might say that ascii is non-English, and the only "foreign language" that I can speak fluently

Originally Posted by Spring

She dressed her daughter in a red dress
The coroner dressed the dead man in a tailcoat
Or I have to use the word "put" in such context?

Nope, don't need "put" here at all. Those sentences are perfect. Obviously, "put" could be used as the action verb ... "She put a red dress on her daughter" ... but your phrasing is better, more eloquent

Originally Posted by Spring

PS
jandros, I don't mind being the object of your lesson lol

Thanks! But this week I'll give you a break and pick on someone else

[Spring]

Thank you jandros! That dressing thing didn't sound right but since you say so...

[istanbulgal]

Originally Posted by Spring

Thank you jandros! That dressing thing didn't sound right but since you say so...

It is very 'right'.

Hi Spring: as Jandros said, your examples were correct, here are a few others to convince you!

Children like to dress independently.
It's fun dressing up babies.
Children love to play dress up.

I like to dress light in the summer.
She likes to wear fashionable clothes.
He needs to dress professional for work.
I can dress down on Fridays (look casual).
Put on that sexy dress!
He likes to dress for success.
Women love to dress up!
Are you dressing up for Halloween?

Btw: what salad dressing do you prefer? I like Italian.

[jandros]

Originally Posted by istanbulgal

I can dress down on Fridays (look casual).
Women love to dress up!
Are you dressing up for Halloween?

Dress up, dress down, great additions!

Originally Posted by istanbulgal

Btw: what salad dressing do you prefer? I like Italian.

Pour moi, blue cheese! Specifically dressings that use bleu d'Auvergne, or a mild Gorganzola ... not too pungent, not so "rude" that it "dresses down" the taste of a good glass of wine

[MaresLejanos]

Nice

The thanks button is finally here ... It's a shame I have given too much thanks you for today, and I'm not able to that right now ... Never mind, I'll have the chance to thank you friends

[Orwa]

@Spring, if it was you are the one who make the "thank you" button, then thank you very much, we must had make that sooner but no worries

------------------
I very glad that the thanks button is here now..., i believe now our dear friends get what they deserve

[Spring]

I can not do such thingies Orwa - only the admins can. I just forwarded your request to them and jeez did it

To avoid the offtopicness (once again), can someone tell me if this is correct:

I opened the door, went out into the porch
or
it should be
I opened the door, went on/to (or something else) the porch

[jandros]

First, thanks to everyone involved for moving this topic into learning languages! It almost felt like an "orphan" before

Originally Posted by Spring

...
I opened the door, went out into the porch
or
it should be
I opened the door, went on/to (or something else) the porch

Great question Spring. Typically for a porch or an open deck, you should use onto. The easy explanation is to use into for enclosed areas, and onto for open areas or surfaces.

This will work for most situations, although there are exceptions. But if you think about some apparent exceptions, the same logic might still work. For example, if you walk out of the house, outside, then you'll move into the open air. But just consider that you're completely enclosed by the air. The air forms a roof, walls and everything

I walked out onto the roof ... and I shot an arrow into the air ... and it fell to earth I know not where!

Get into the car.
If you do that, you'll get into trouble.

NB, a side note about in/into, for whoever might be wondering:

"Into" suggests motion, but "in" suggests stagnation. If you've already gotten into the car (motion), now you're in the car (stagnation). Quite often people will just say "Get in the car", but that is not grammatically correct.

[Spring]

Gosh.. so many things are normally said incorrectly that it's no wonder I forgot so many basic things that I learned in school..
I googled the porch thing and most results were with into although that sounded somehow wrong (obviously!)

Thank you so much jandros! Again!

[Orwa]

@Spring, Thanks for forwarding my wishes & also thanks to the Admin that he made this thread tag, it wasn't fair actually and i decided whenever i have "Thank you" i'll do it here cuz here is the only place where i get help