Learning Macedonian language - учиме македонскиот јазик

[Lydia_the angel]

Браво Марија, само така да продолжиш, па како што рече pthalo така побрзо ќе го научиш јазикот
Инаку сè (значи севкупност-"everything", тоа веројатно го знаете, но ете за секој случај) се разликува од формата на помошниот глагол сум (се), во нијансите при изговорот, со тоа што првиот се изговара со повисок тон, значи се нагласува, а и самиот апостроф истото го означува

Сè најубаво

[pthalo]

хехе, успев да те разбирам, ама мислам дека ја не ќе научам разликата дур не сретнам некој од Македонија, кој ќе ми воживо објаснува.

[Sochko]

Здраво на сите.

Не сум дошла тука веќе подолго време, бидејќи имам навистина многу работа, а веќе гледам голем напредок кај членовите. Дури и Холанѓанец заинтересиран за македонскиот јазик? Навистина интересно. =)

Иако не пишувам често, се трудам колку можам да проверувам кој што напишал, па се надевам дека ќе можам да помогнам со сите недоумици што ги имате. Гледам дека Лидија засега одлично се снаоѓа. =)
Ќе повторам пак: не се двоумете да ми пишете private message кога и да ви затреба.

Голем поздрав до сите!

/С

[blackangel]

i am so glad that u want to learn macedonian hehe if u want some help u can ask me i am from macedonia..

[sizr_sistr]

Hi, i'm macedonian-american and i know the whole politics things gets tired really fast but can someone from MK explain it how people there see this language identity question? it seems soo weird to me... yes, i'd heard of bulgarians and could assume that the language is sort of similar, but none of my family ever said that it's the same. so i was just totally shocked to get to collage and meet actual bulgarians who kept saying that the language is the same! it just seemed bizarre to me since even with my limited understanding i can see that their alphabet and grammar and even basic terms like 'hi how are u what is ur name' is tootally not macedonian. maybe i'm being unrealistic but why is this even being taught to bulgarians?

[pthalo]

Not from Macedonia, and I've only been learning Macedonian since August, but I don't get it either. The languages are similar enough that I can sometimes figure out what's being said IF I don't run into strange cyrillic letters that I don't know how they're pronounced OR if I'm reading latin transcription and I don't run into transliterations that I can't make any sense of, but even then, it's generally different enough that I run into some problems.

If Croatian and Serbian are two different languages (and they are), and I can understand Croatian without any effort whatsoever, having only studied Serbian, then Bulgarian and Macedonian are definitely two different languages.

[lopatka]

I am Bulgarian and I understand Macedonian perfectly .. :] For me your language is the same as ours (I can see it, noone has taught me ... ), just Macedonian pronounciation is slightly different and the way Macedonian construct their sentences is quite weird, cause no Bulgarian would construct them that way :] Anyway .. that's just my opinion (and probably the opinion of most Bulgarians). I don't want to offend anyone.

And just for the record, I met a Macedonian girl in my old school here in Toronto ... We understood each other perfectly :] How is that basic terms are so totally not Macedonian when we say Здравей, как си?, and you say Zdravo, kako si? .... 0.o ...

[sizr_sistr]

thanks for your responses. - unfortunately this is always where this debate seems to go when i talked with bulgarians. please look. 'zdravey kak si' is not the same thing as 'zdravo kako si', is it? not anymore then German 'Wie geht mit dir' is the same as Dutch '*** gaat met jou' or Spanish 'como esta' is 'the same' as Portuguese 'como esta'.
sure sometimes some things might be understandable, but that's also true for germans and dutch or czech and slovak or norwegian and swedish (who all can "understand each other perfectly" too!)... the point i'm trying to make is that it is MEAN for one nation to tell another nation that their language doesn't exist, right? it would be EXACTLY like if the Germans told the Dutch (which they did in WWII) or the Spanish told the Portuguse that - it's just mean, and it's not true.
If I go to London, there is not a different alphabet with different mutually exclusive sounds and different grammar and words. "how are you" in England is "how are you" in America - that is what it looks like when in it's the same language - plus those countries share the same literature and music, newspapers, movies to the point that sometimes we can't tell which is which.

anyway, i was not asking IF it's the same language. i'm asking why ONLY bulgarians think it is. i would have wished that an educated person would be capable of some self-reflection and objective perspective on their own country's political inconsistancies. after all there has been a lot of political control and manipulation (chenobyl never happened!) i don't really want to argue anymore with bulgarians. i'm just sad that no bulgarian is CURIOUS to look and see for themselves that this is something they might have been misinformed about.

before i met a bulgarian student, i had never even heard that idea. it just doesn't make any sense!

i appreciate that bulgarians don't "want to offend" anyone, but it IS offensive and bizarre to tell another nation that they have no language and we DON'T AGREE. Tell the Dutch not to be offended that in WWII they were told their language was just a dialect of German.

[pthalo]

(I think some arguments could be made that British and American are two different languages, the pronunciation, spelling, vocabulary, and in some cases grammar, are different enough. The reason we consider them the same language is more political than anything.)

[Lydia_the angel]

Hello to all First welcome to the forum to all of you and thanks for taking part in it:-) I think I've been talking about this in the past, but will repeat again that I would agree with sizr-sistr and pthalo that Macedonian is NOT same as Bulgarian or any other language. Otherwise it wouldn't have been named as that other language as English is same everywhere
It is similar with the languages that belong to the same group, meaning that have same roots from one proto-language, but that goes for every language of course, as a normal thing:-)
Me, for instance, can't understand Bulgarian as quite good as I can Serbian. Would that mean Macedonian and Serbian are the same? Absolutely not, so the same goes with Bulgarian, on the other hand I think Bulgarians understand more Macedonian that we do Bulgarian and as well
Macedonians understand more Serbian than Serbians-Macedonian:-)

The examples and also the whole analysis our sizr-sistr wrote about are absolutely correct and I second all of thatNice explanation dear
All of these languages and the other that belong to same group form words with some similar roots, but yet all of them are separate. So, the problem lies in politics and has always been about it, it is same with Gr about the name issue. People there are raised with such thoughts which are nationalistic more than accurate- this was written in German newspaper (talking about Gr), these are not my words, but let it be, their way of thinking, and I don't judge it. Only One can judge and that is our God almighty.
I've seen that in such people (not all) there's nothing humanely left since they even despise and write extremely bad words for anything that has the word Macedonia in it, even for deceased people (like for our angel Tose Proeski) Would you consider that as normal? I wouldn't for sure, nor anyone would!
So you don't have to worry about nothing, if you try to argue seems as you are trying to prove to them something and would seem as you are not sure, while we are quite sure and we don't have to prove to someone about our name, language or identity at all.
Macedonia has always been attacked with evil moves, but we survived, because even though we are small now, we are big in hearts from always
So don't pay any attention to what someone might say, what we know is true and what others may think is their job, and I don't care really, neither should you
Btw, since pthalo mentioned, I agree that Serbian and Croatian are sooo similar, that I even don't recognize if they are different, but still they are:-)
Also British and American is same language, just with some slight pronunciation differences, but yet that example can't be even bit similar when goes for Macedonian with any other language

Wish all nice weekend, xxx

[lopatka]

I'm sorry that I offended you by saying this thing about Macedonian, but that's the way I feel about it and I don't think дa си кривя душата. :] Well .. yeah, anyway, this topic could go on eternally, so I won't speak anymore :]]

[Lydia_the angel]

No worries lopatka, you didn't offend no one, I don't consider that as an offend if you ask me All languages like I said that belong to same group of languages (there are many groups, but won't go into grammar too muchare with similar roots, but of course it is nonsensical to consider all of them as same.
Or, I would really consider Macedonian same with Serbian as I understand it perfectly In my case, my Bulgarian is not on that level, I really can't translate Bulgarian songs so good, I only managed to translate one so far with some difficulties because there are many words I don't understand and also some letters are different, while with Serbian I have no problems at all
We are just discussing and everyone can say its own opinion and feelings, as long as we keep the respect between each other that is all that matters
Hope you all agree

Best wishes, xxx

[i'm little one]

гледам овде многу мнениња за jазици
но имам инаку прашањеможате да кажете ме про "падежи" в македонски jазик бидеjки не можам да разумем тоа
требам да знам толку многу

[sizr_sistr]

thanks pthalo lydia & lopatka - yes, for just letting each one express what we wanted to express still respecting each other. that's the most important. i hope that eventually with more understanding more people can be friends over these political boundaries. i just think we can stand up and be assertive when it's a question of cultural identity.

now i really want to let everyone get back to 'ucenjevo' that's great!

- just as a final note: 'da si krivya dushata' is a good example that i might sort of guess the meaning from context and similarity but the grammatical structure and the verb declension and the russian letter 'ya' would not at all be the same in macedonian. totally unlike the little bit of bulgarian i've seen, when we say 'jas'... verb ending is always 'am or 'av or 'ov. and the basic word conjunction 'that' is 'deka'. it's 'da' in serbian (which i could say i sort of 'understand' too even not having grown up next to). not even a linguist, just a basic observation.

ok - now i'm little one has her question that i'll let the more linguistic lydia etc to answer.

pozeluvam i na site se najdobro!

[sizr_sistr]

(sorry, just one more note on the topic and then please get back to language and i'll get back to school)...
i was just thinking it over and talking more about this language identity issue, that obviously has become politically complicated... i still just felt soo strange that something is not right, so what else i wanted to say is this:

however macedonia wants to define their national language and identity - it is NOT up to bulgaria! it should not be subject to bulgarian approval or agreement or JUDGMENT. that is exactly what has been so bizarre to me! - that another person who doesn't really know you would take the authority to tell you your own identity! should sweden tell denmark that they speak swedish? or should germany tell holland that they speak german?

when china conquered the tibetan nation - and when turkey took control of the kurdish nation, both those countries made an official propaganda myth that tibetans are actually chinese and kurds are actually turks. the present-day republic of macedonia is (thank god) not subjected to bulgaria. i looked up our history and it seems this is where the political issue comes from.

by saying there is no macedonian language the bulgarian government avoids having to recognize (like gr) that they have an ethnic and linguistic minority - that exists in pirin macedonia because that is the territory that bulgaria took in 1913. and by the way, there are also holidays in macedonia celebrating the fact that in the various periods of occupation, bulgaria never took over completely.

i totally don't feel anger towards gr or bulgaria for that. wars happen and borders change. that's fine. but it just so WEIRD when i hear bulgarians acting like they don't see that there is a macedonian language - as if THE WHOLE REST OF THE WORLD is in on some conspiracy formulated by Broz Tito - and of the WHOLE WORLD that can look and see a macedonian language, ONLY bulgaria is a victim if macedonian should be recognized.

it's not a matter of opinion:
tibetan people & language exist. they are not chinese.
kurdish people & language exist. they are not turks.
and macedonian people & language exist. they are not bulgarians.

in the south of the united states, there are a lot of mexican people. and that's all fine. the government and the history officially acknowledge that there was a war with mexico who lost, and so there will be no future wars over the territory but the mexican people have a right to speak their language and be 'as mexican' as they want to be.

peace and mutual respect and understanding is my wish for the whole world!
that's all! peace peace peace.

[Lydia_the angel]

I must say sizr-sistr is absolutely CORRECT about every detail that was mentioned, that I really don't know what else to add;-) Excellent explanation and all of that reality and truth! I support every word and her opinion and also congratulations from my side for the knowledge

But, as it was asked and don't like to make this forum with political note, I told my opinion in private and I think it is time for us to continue with the questions regarding the Macedonian language

Марија, по однос на твоето прашање, можеш да воздивниш, бидејки нашиот јазик нема падежи. Тоа е тоа што најмногу ми се допаѓа, но од друга страна ги прави јазиците со падежи потешки за учење, иако не до тој степен, но сепак кога учиме друг јазик се среќаваме за прв пат со истите Ќе го напишам другово на англиски, бидејќи може останатите да не разберат, а сакаат да го знаат истото.

So, the Macedonian language had complex case system that was inherited from the proto-language and the old Slavic one, but after a time it was lost (only the vocative form has left) Therefore, the Macedonian language shows some special, in some cases, unique characteristics due to its central position in the Balkans.

Anyway we have some specific way to show the cases without using any case, mean it is also about grammar way of forming the sentences.

For instance, as a suitable forms of the dative case there are the long and short pronominal forms for the indirect object (mene mi, tebe ti, nemu mu, nejze i, nam ni, vam vi i nim im).

The most common mark for the indirect object in the Macedonian language is the preposition "na".

Examples: "I go dadov molivot na Ana"- "I gave the pencil to Ana"

As well the dative forms we mentioned also show belonging, something which goes as a characteristic for the genitive case.

Example: Majka mi (mojata majka)- my mother

I don't know if it is little bit more clear now, as I know grammar gives headaches sometimes We will go step by step, but no worries, like I said, there are not much problems with the cases since they don't exist in that way

Greetings, xxx

[i'm little one]

ооо Лидиjа фала,знам што немате падежи во jазик но не верував
така разумев про dative formsи гледам тоа е не тешко
ке учам и ако имам прашање за падежи тоа ке прашувам
ке можеш да зборуваш ме за Adjective
if i want to say gym hall,bookcase and etc.i should use "за" in these forms like "шкаф за книги"??
and one more question,tell me about word "weather" cause it can be usin' like "time" and like "weather" so what's difference between them??
sorry for askin' many question

[Lydia_the angel]

No problem Maria, you are welcome and no worries, I will come here to explain you and help you all as much as I can
Regarding your question, in the cases you mentioned you will have to use "za"(for) because there aren't one-word adjectives for those examples.
So only in such instances you will use "za" like for gym hall- (sala za gimnastika), but again these are not considered as adjectives actually.
It is more like a noun explained with a preposition and another noun, so not a real adjective.

The adjectives get the gender and the number of the noun they are going with. So in Macedonian there are 3 genders and 2 numbers. Therefore the adjective gets them from the noun, unlike in English. So it will be more difficult here, I mean, English is easier about this issue

Examples:

Beautiful city- ubav grad, beautiful house- ubava kukja, beautiful village- ubavo selo, beautiful mountains- ubavi planini;
lovely guy- prekrasen decko, lovely woman- prekrasna zena, lovely lake- prekrasno ezero, lovely streets-ubavi ulici etc etc.
The plural is formed on the same way for the 3 genders.

1.ubav------ubavi
2.ubava-----ubavi
3.ubavo-----ubavi

There are also so called possessive pronominal adjectives that correspond to the English possessives "my", "your" etc. In Macedonian they are called adjectives because like the other of this kind they agree in number and gender with the noun they modify. This differs from English in which the possessive forms are invariant.

Examples:

My chair- Mojot stol; My book- Mojata kniga; My dog- Moeto kuce
My chairs- Moite stolovi; My books- Moite knigi; My dogs- Moite kucinja

In other words, the specific form of the possessive adjective in Macedonian is determined by the noun that is possessed.

Here's one small exercise I found for you to practice the adjectives and their meaning

http://www.utoronto.ca/slavic/macedo...pridavki01.htm

Enjoy!

[i'm little one]

Thanks Lydia,seems i got it
but that adjectives get the gender and the number of the noun its the same like in Russian
and thanks for exersise thats great
so i think soon ill have more questions but who knows
Macedonian is great

[Lydia_the angel]

No problem Maria Good that you got the point and if you need something else I hope I'll be able to help you in future
And happy that you are learning Macedonian passionately and that you like it

Take care, xxx

[i'm little one]

thanks Lydia for helpin
Macedonian isnt so hard like it seems in first time
just it needs time to know it better

[i'm little one]

Lydia i need ur help tell me about aorist and in macedonian
is it like the past time or how?

[Lydia_the angel]

I will write in English so that others may understand as well, hope it is ok
(I would write in Macedonian, but I don't know if the rest will get the point)

Aorist

The aorist, called in Macedonian either aorist or minato opredeleno svršeno vreme (минато определено свршено време-past definite complete tense) is a form which refers to a completed action in the past tense.
It most often corresponds to the simple past tense in English.

Examples: I read the book (Ја прочитав книгата); I wrote the letter (Го напишав писмото); I ate my supper (Ја изедов вечерата) etc.
In contemporary standard Macedonian, the aorist is formed almost exclusively from perfective verbs.

While all verbs in the aorist (except sum-сум) take the same endings, there are complexities in the aorist stem vowel and possible consonant alternations.

All verbs (except sum-сум) take the following endings in the aorist:

Singular

1.jas- v
2. ti- #
3. toj/taa/toa - #

Plural

1. nie- vme
2. vie- vte
3. tie- a

# this sign means there are no endings after the stem vowel

Example with the verb напиша

Еднина

1. jас напишав
2. ти напиша
3. тој/таа/тоа напиша

Множина

1. ние напишавме
2. вие напишавте
3. тие напишаа

Поздрав!

[i'm little one]

Фала Лидиjа,разумев
но посакувам да пише тоа по македонски

[Losha]

Hello

I want to know a meaning of a word ..
I've heard it almost all songs I've listened.I don't have a Macedonian dictionary. Could you tell me what does "vecherva" mean?
By the way Macedonian is really interesting! I love it so much!
Thank you and the forum!..

[Lydia_the angel]

Originally Posted by Losha

Hello : D

I want to know a meaning of a word ..
I've heard it almost all songs I've listened.I don't have a Macedonian dictionary. Could you tell me what does "vecherva" mean?:-)
By the way Macedonian is really interesting! I love it so much!
Thank you and the forum!..: D

Hello Losha from here as well I'm glad you joined us and that you also love the Macedonian language and our forum аt all We are always happy when we are helpful Regarding your question, the word "vecherva" (вечерва) means tonight so you're right about this word being in many songs, I guess because it is a romantic one

Марија, мило ми е што разбираш Инаку пишувам на македонски за прашањата шти ги имаш во однос на граматиката, бидејќи останатите можно е да не разбираат македонски толку добро, мислам и дека еднаш кога разговаравме побараа да преведам на англиски, па затоа во интерес на сите, граматичките правила ги пишувам на англиски:-)
А вака ние можеме да си комуницираме на македонски и ти можеш да си пишуваш на истиот, а јас еве кога не е нешто посебно важно ќе ти враќам на македонски Се надевам нема да е проблем:-)

Поздрав за сите!

[i'm little one]

Лидиjа надевам што другите ке учат и разумеат македонски како jас и ти но граматика можа е тежок понекогаш,знам тоа
сега не можам да замислувам моjот живот без македонски jазик
возможно во бивши жизни jас бев македонка
Бакнежи од мене за тебе Лидиjа

[Losha]

Hey Lydia thank you very much ! I always wonder that word! Mnogo blogodaram!

[Bazilija]

Dobar den na site!
Ve čitam i učam pomalku. Imam mngou problemi so zamjenici i prilozi ama ne se grizam poradi toga, ke bide podobro. Jas go imam edno prašanje vo vrska so edna stara pesna od Egejska Makedonija (mislam deka e od toj kraj): ve molam za pomok na zborovi od pesna bidejki ne gi razmev vo celosta
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saksv...eature=related

Ka mi ispadnala moma Katerina
Niz tie nejni nejni rodni dvori

Ta mi rastresala nejna rusa kosa
Niz taja nejna nejna ravna snaga

Ta mi ja videlo edno ludo mlado
??????Katerina.....je govori

Oj ti Katerino ti mlado mome
Ajde elaj elaj elaj ti pri mene

Jas ka da ti mazam taja rusa kosa
Jas ka da ti kršam taja ravna snaga

Ako može nekoj da mi go popravi tekstot

Golem pozdrav drugari

[Lydia_the angel]

Марија, и јас се надевам дека ќе го постигнеме тоа со лекциите малку по малку А воопшто не се сомневам дека си била Македонка во претходниот живот, и ти и Драгица, бидејќи и двете сте љубителки на македонскиот јазик и држава, ако не грешам.:па можно е тоа да е една од причините

Драгица, не се грижи за заменките и прилозите, не се толку тешки, ќе ги научиш бидејќи имаш желба, а тоа е доста важно;-) Гледаш колку убаво пишуваш на македонски, со Марија двете напреднувате:-) Инаку и јас мислам дека песната е од регионот на Егејска Македонија, и е на Воденски дијалект. Имав мака да слушнам што пеат на тие делови, каде што и ти не си сигурна, па ја преслушав неколку пати, но некако неразбирливо се слуша, а музиката е посилна. Единствено го слушнав овој дел. (I na Katerina...), a наместо "младо" моме викаат "малој" моме Патем, групата што изведува вакви песни се викаат Воденки Ако случајно разберам што пеат после тоа -"и на Катерина....говори", ќе те известам во најскоро време

Losha Молам;-) you are welcome, it's always a pleasure

Поздрав до сите:-)