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Thread: Haiku

  1. #101
    Senior Member Frankie Jasmine's Avatar
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    From OI:

    Emerging
    wings from Southern seas
    melting ice

    Now THAT is a beautiful word picture, OI! I love it.


    Allow me to continue our "game," then I'll present some questions for consideration and opinions:


    Melting ice
    From continental icebergs
    Global warming


    . . . . .


    About "emerge" (which you like), I too prefer the sound of it, changing the subject to plural (spring grasses), then it would read:

    Hope
    Spring grasses
    Emerge

    and "emerge" would be a verb reflecting back to the plural subject "grasses," right?

    However, isn't "emerging" a present participle in the first haiku, this one . . . ?

    Hope
    Spring grass
    Emerging

    That is, as a sentence it would read:

    Hope--spring grass [is] emerging. OR
    Hope! Spring grasses [are] emerging.

    But with haiku, the verb is simply left out? I use the following as an example, from englishclub.com:

    Gerunds (-ing)

    When a verb ends in -ing, it may be a gerund or a present participle. It is important to understand that they are not the same.

    When we use a verb in -ing form more like a noun, it is usually a gerund:
    •Fishing is fun.

    When we use a verb in -ing form more like a verb or an adjective, it is usually a present participle:
    •Anthony is fishing.
    •I have a boring teacher.

    . . . . .


    And would you believe when I was in school, gerunds were rarely if ever referenced?! I don't know what else they would have been called back then! Perhaps they left gerunds out of my public school education!
    Last edited by Frankie Jasmine; 12-16-2012 at 10:59 PM.

  2. #102
    Rock Mod MoonRide*r*'s Avatar
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    Present participles, gerunds, and dangling participles used to be a hated topic among English teachers coz it was one of the hardest things for the average mind to "catalog" for correct use.

    A present-participle-verb such as "emerging" can also become an adjective, which is OI's use of the word. But "emerging" is not easily used as a (noun) gerund.

    Gerunds:
    Flying is not an easily learned skill.
    Playing basketball is one of my favorite pastimes.
    Thinking of my dad, I bought a new battery-powered drill that was on sale.

    Gerunds are more complicated because they can be use alone or as part of a "compound noun" (e.g., playing basketball), and they may be used as a subject or an object of a sentence, or the subject of a subjunctive clause, etc; at which point(s) they may appear to be verbs rather than gerund-nouns:

    I can't listen to that song without remembering my grandmother.
    (Without is one of the verbs that require a gerund after it.)

    When I really need to talk, she is really good at listening.
    (This is an example of an adjective+preposition that requires a gerund after it.)

    Here's a good link (with 4-5 following pages) for more examples of gerunds:

    [url]http://esl.about.com/od/grammarstructures/a/English-Gerund.htm[/url]
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  3. #103
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    True, true, Moon and Frankie. I actually never studied much English grammar beyond primary school, though God knows I've studied craploads of all other kinds of grammar. Gerunds are much more obvious in, say, Russian, as they have a different suffix from everything else. In English, a single suffix may mean a number of different things (such as -ing). Midnight brain...

    What I meant is, if you write 'emerge', it can be used in a number of ways:
    - as an imperative ("Emerge, o white nights of yore!")
    - as a plural
    - with all kinds of auxiliary verbs ("May emerge", "Will emerge", "Must emerge", "Can emerge", "Did emerge" etc.)
    I'm sure there are other ways besides. The point being, this gives the next poet a lot more wiggle room than a singular form, and also more than -ing (whatever its grammatical role happens to be).

    Enough grammar. The problem with English (and a number of other Germanic languages) is that they've become so assimilated over the centuries that there is little distinction between the various forms. Now, Hungarian, Finnish, Russian and Latin, to name a few, are way better off

    Back to poetry, 4-6-4, and my first haiku/senryu with sarcasm:

    Global warming
    no time to care about
    better ignore
    Last edited by Guest; 12-17-2012 at 06:13 AM.

  4. #104
    Moderator VivaPalestina's Avatar
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    Oh bummer Frankie got out of doing one syllable sentences

  5. #105
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    You're welcome to go back to them

  6. #106
    Moderator VivaPalestina's Avatar
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    Oh there's another page, I didnt notice. Can I just say that I've never been taught gerunds or whatever. I only knew words like simple past and present perfect and imperative existed when I studied spanish.

    Good old -ing words.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrchestraInside View Post
    You're welcome to go back to them
    Yes but Frankie refused to be challenged

    Better ignore
    All the little slights
    Thrown about

  7. #107
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    Thrown about
    kisses of the winds
    wet and cold

  8. #108
    Moderator VivaPalestina's Avatar
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    Wet and cold
    seasons pass the grey
    moon, silent

  9. #109
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    moon, silent
    branches whispering
    time is not

  10. #110
    Moderator VivaPalestina's Avatar
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    All this syllable count is making me doubt my mathematical skills too :/

    Time is not
    constant, ever changing
    Flexible

  11. #111
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    Nonsense, I've never seen you falter yet - was this 3-6-3 intentional?

    martall.jpg
    Flexible
    bending with the wind
    ageless, strong

  12. #112
    Senior Member Frankie Jasmine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrchestraInside View Post
    True, true, Moon and Frankie. I actually never studied much English grammar beyond primary school... Midnight brain...

    What I meant is, if you write 'emerge', it can be used in a number of ways:
    - as an imperative ("Emerge, o white nights of yore!")
    - as a plural
    - with all kinds of auxiliary verbs ("May emerge", "Will emerge", "Must emerge", "Can emerge", "Did emerge" etc.)
    I'm sure there are other ways besides. The point being, this gives the next poet a lot more wiggle room than a singular form, and also more than -ing (whatever its grammatical role happens to be).
    Thanks Moon. Your post was reassuring and informative; easy to understand. I'm glad I'm not the only one frightened by gerund.

    OI: I couldn't see the forest for the trees. I understand now--your primary point was the usefulness "for greater flexibility," (and I would say also aesthetics!) of one word over another. I am 100% with you regarding the sound of and the flexibility of your better (plural) word recommendation. I focused primarily upon the minor (more difficult and never learned) word gerund v. present participle!

    Please do NOT give up on helping me with haiku! and grammar! I need the help, and it becomes a learning tool for others to learn from my mistakes. I represent the lay-person out there who wants to better learn haiku . . . while you and Viv already seem to "be there"!
    Last edited by Frankie Jasmine; 12-17-2012 at 11:55 AM.

  13. #113
    Senior Member Frankie Jasmine's Avatar
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    A haiku dedicated to my husband:



    Ageless, strong
    Family patriarch
    Deep rooted

  14. #114
    Moderator VivaPalestina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankie Jasmine View Post
    . . . while you and Viv already seem to "be there"!
    Be there? I wrote my first ever Haiku poem a few days ago remember. Oh wait it was Senryu actually Give me a few decades to catch up with Ola

  15. #115
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    I wrote my first haiku, ehh... Last year? And I've only read a few odd internet articles about them, nothing more. I'm good at pretending to know a lot more than I actually do I think that there is a level of sophistication in Japanese poetry which isn't as obvious to the naked eye as in traditional English poetry. I've written two, I think, which I am quite happy with, and the rest are... well, practice. Which is what this thread is all about!

    That's a beautiful tribute to your husband, Frankie. This is a tribute to the iconic English ash, sadly dying as we speak:


    Deep rooted
    shadows of ashes
    burning trees


    P.S. Yee-haa! The forum admins have heeded us mere mortals and added the left-centre-right buttons (in 'Go Advanced' reply mode). No more messing around with tables to bring the poetry to the centre!

  16. #116
    Moderator VivaPalestina's Avatar
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    I know they told me Do I get a hero medal?

    p.s and there is no need to go advanced

  17. #117
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    You get 1st prize!!!!


  18. #118
    Moderator VivaPalestina's Avatar
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    Burning trees
    Flames of bright orange
    Dry autumn

  19. #119
    Senior Member Frankie Jasmine's Avatar
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    Hey, maybe you guys are humble, but you both are naturals, because you've done them so well from the start. But I'm glad to hear that in your own (humble) minds, you consider yourselves novices and in "practice mode." . . . .OI: Thank you for the explanation of the ash trees. Otherwise I would have read "ash" only as "burned ashes" from a fire. That was a nice tribute to a dying tree group . . .

    Viv! You got another prize!

  20. #120
    Rock Mod MoonRide*r*'s Avatar
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    Practice
    3-5-3:

    Engine you
    motoring my train
    into blue

    Good? No?

    Continuing

    Dry autumn
    seeds winterfest in
    evergreen
    There is no glamour in sudden death, and nobody ever wins a war.
    :
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