Rembetiko - Music of the outsiders.

great page

• rebetikists as ??

• "Just before 1922, the new nation of Greece, freed by the Great Powers just 60 or seventy years previously, "
  try about 100 (Peloponnese was freed in 1821). If you wanted to say Greece as we know it now then you must be explicit. And a correction, Greeks may see this page, so write with the help of the Great Powers (I think then they were called Society of Nations, translated from Greek)

• Just some history, which you may know but you tried to be short, we didn't loose the war because Venizelos fell, at least that was not the only reason. The greek troops had entered too much in Anatolia, and practically they weren't able to get food, amunition and the rest + turks knew the inside lands better thatn we did

• Fan fact: Kemal Ataturk was one of the Turks of Thessaloniki

• rempetes past their time mostly in prison and tekedes. There were rempetes, magkes and koutsavakides. don't ask me what is the difference between them or if there is any. I don't know

• "This was an intensely personal dance, mostly quite slow and danced by one man at a time."
  women didn't normally danced to zeibekiko, if they were they weren't considered of the high society,let's say.
  
  this is the last paraggelia, after this incident it was considered illegal(by law, as far as I know),
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RncZ6...eature=related .

• "Mikis Theodorakis used the bouzoukia in its various shapes and sizes" bouzouki is one thing, baglamas another. It's not the big bouzouki and the small one.

• katharevousa was taught and spoken in Greece long before the Xounta. If you wanted to show that you were from a "good" home, you had to talk Katharevousa even before the 2nd WW. Practically after the freedom from the Turks, so it's not something that Xounta did

Some more (complementary) comments from me:

- Rebetikists sounds a bit strange, maybe adopting the greek rebetes, or the anglicised rebetists would be better

-The headquarters of the Greek Orthodox church are not in Istanbul, they are in Athens and have been since the formation of the Greek state. In Istanbul are the headquarters of the Orthodox church for all nations.

- Certain muslim and christian populations such as the muslims of Western Thrace were exempt from expulsion according to the Treaty of Lausanne

-the junta did not force the state of Cyprus to create a coup, it engineered the coup.


Please try and get your facts right before posting.

• I don't agree at all with the anglicised word (well, to be frank not only with this one). why on earth cann't they use the Greek word??????I don't think that this one is a hard-to-pronounce one.

• Zvezda, the Greek orthodox church belongs to the Patriarxeio of Fanari, wich is in Instabul, he is correct on that. And no there are some orthodox churches that belong to the Patriarxeio of Jerusalem(I think that of Egypt and another one). Xristodoulos for example was the Arxiepiskopos (different from Patriarch, and Arxiepiskopos is a minor grade) of Athens and pasis Ellados (with the last part just honorary title), he didn't control all Greece. For example the islands at least of the Aegean are controlled straight from Fanari(always was like that)

• The Treaty of Lausanne had to do with Tuskish muslims, not all the muslims of Thrace. some of them the muslims of Thrace are Pomaki, and they are not Turkish.

• About the coup in Cyprus, remember that in Greece there is some percentage that believes that Xounta had something to do with it(you won't find it written clearly in any "normal" book). Ray, lives in Greece so most probably he knows that part.

Originally Posted by tzina772000

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• Zvezda, the Greek orthodox church belongs to the Patriarxeio of Fanari, wich is in Instabul, he is correct on that. And no there are some orthodox churches that belong to the Patriarxeio of Jerusalem(I think that of Egypt and another one). Xristodoulos for example was the Arxiepiskopos (different from Patriarch, and Arxiepiskopos is a minor grade) of Athens and pasis Ellados (with the last part just honorary title), he didn't control all Greece. For example the islands at least of the Aegean are controlled straight from Fanari(always was like that)

• The Treaty of Lausanne had to do with Tuskish muslims, not all the muslims of Thrace. some of them the muslims of Thrace are Pomaki, and they are not Turkish.

• About the coup in Cyprus, remember that in Greece there is some percentage that believes that Xounta had something to do with it(you won't find it written clearly in any "normal" book). Ray, lives in Greece so most probably he knows that part.

The Greek Orthodox Church is independent, or autocephalus if you prefer. This was done so that when the Greek state was created the Ottoman empire wouldn't exert influence over the newly formed state through the Patriarch in Istanbul. At the time regions of today's Greece such as Crete were still parts of the Ottoman empire and that is why they are still controlled by the Patriarch in Istanbul. Don't forget the Ecumenical Patriarch has to be a Turkish citizen, not Greek.

Some of the Western Thrace muslims are not of Turkish decent but many were and are. Many Greeks were excluded too from the Treaty of Lausanne for example those who lived on the isle of Tenedos, or Istanbul, so there were exceptions on both sides.

As I said the Junta engineered the coup which does imply it had a lot to do with it. But to say that the Junta forced Cyprus to the coup is a totally different thing.

Unless there is new evidence that what I have said is wrong, in which case enlighten me

Zvezda's right, Tzina. The Greek Orthodox Church is autocephalous (since 1833), ergo the Ecumenical Patriarch has no direct jurisdiction over it. The Archbishop (o Arxiepiskopos, diladi) of Athens and all Greece is not subject to any higher ecclesiastical authority, he's the First Hierarch.

Being autocephalous too, the Orthodox Church of Alexandria does not belong to the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, it belongs to itself. Theofilos III and Theodoros II are two different Patriarchs.
As a matter of fact, both of the churches are of the Pentarchy.

There are fourteen churches in the Orthodox Communion that are generally accepted as autocephalous. Nine of them are Patriarchates: Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem (the ancient Eastern Patriarchates, 4 of the mentioned above Pentarchy), Bulgaria, Russia, Serbia, Romania and Georgia. The others, such as the Greek, are headed by a Metropolitan Archbishop.

***

Ray, Tzina's remark is relevant. Katharevousa was already over a century old at the time of the Junta. They just attempted to reinstate it.

The most renowned of the, hm, "purifiers" was Adamantios Korais (1748 -1833). Katharevousa was created by him and various literary figures, scholars and journalists of the 19th century. This militant scholar of the Greek Enlightenment believed fervently that the mother tongue of the Greeks had been corrupted by the many Turkish, Italian, Bulgarian, etc accretions that had been "infesting" it for centuries. He thought that Greek needed "correcting" according to the rules of Ancient Greek. So in 19th century Korais coined - always respecting Ancient Greek,- for instance, the word πολιτισμός for civilisation, while φαμελιά became οικογένεια, κοντραμπάντο became λαθρεμπόριο, μινίστρος became υπουργός and so forth.



P.S. Koutsavakides were the bullies and the braggarts of Psiri, i.e. strictly Athenian. They were named after some guy called Koutsavakis, a famous magkas of the 19th century. However, Bairaktaris got rid of them.
So, in my opinion, as a common noun "koutsavakis", besides "pseftopalikaras", rather implies an outlaw.

Magkas comes from Turkish (manga = squad, group). So "magkas", meaning "soldier who belonged to a team of irregular soldiers in the 1821 revolution", ought to mean a brave one.

(These Greek soldiers did not belong to an organized group; they were independent and did not follow any rules or strategies. Nevertheless they were brave and fought for their freedom. The contemporary meaning of the word "magkas" encompasses the concept of being independent and refusing to obey to rules; in addition, magkas is a man who spends his time in the streets, does not dress properly, does not conform to the rules of society and is indifferent to laws.)

What the etymology of "rempetis" is I do not know. Slavic? Turkish? Arabic?

Ugh, this came out too long. Okay, that's enough of me playing the smartb**t. lol

Yeap I searched it, but by saying Greek orthodox church it's not meant the whole of Greece. Creta, most of the northern part of Greece, most of the Greek Islands belong to the Ecumenical Patriarchate. Ray lives in Creta, so most probably it made sense to him that since one place in Greece belongs there all of it belongs there (which makes sense to me too, but that's irrelevant).

The word rempetis I think comes from turkish too, it means also something like group or something like that.

Όσο και αν έψαξα στα λεξικά μου, δεν μπόρεσα να βρω την ετυμολογία της λέξεως αυτής. :/
Το λεξικό του Ιδρύματος Τριανταφυλλίδη προτείνει "ίσως" σλαβική αρχή. H πρώτη έκδοση του λεξικού Μπαμπινιώτη αναφέρει ως πιθανή προέλευση της λέξης "ρεμπέτης" το σλαβικό ή κάποια τουρκική προέλευση, ενώ η δεύτερη αναφέρει μόνο το αραβικό "ribat".

Originally Posted by Raykphth

I have just published a large article on my web page about the history, the politics and the trials of the music, rebetika.

I hope that you like it.

http://crete.wordpress.com

Ray

OK, so after all the discussions, I am pretty close to be being right. I have corrected the article a little, but I don't want to go too far because I may lose the sense of the whole thing.

Remember that this article was written for English people who have very little knowledge of any of this, and I wanted them to know more of Greece and Crete and to try to begin to understand the culture of a fine country.

We can argue all day about patriarchs of wherever but to the the audience of English people that I directed the article at, they will become confused and disoriented at too much argument, it is all new to them.

I did my best, if anything is seriously wrong, then tell me.

Ray
http://crete.wordpress.com

Ray,
you have that blog because you want to be read. Whenever you let us know there is an new entry, you automatically expose yourself/texts to comments. Saying that your texts are aimed at British people and therefore do not need to be accurate is just an excuse. Do not be lazy, do your research to get your facts right, and then post. If you can't be bothered to do that then there is no need to ask for our comments and can continue to misinform the British public (and by the way how can you control what nationality your readers are?). Actually I find that quite offensive, it sounds like you underestimate the British people's attention to detail, desire, and will to read something that is accurate as well as amusing. This isn't doing your adopted homecountry any good either...

Zvezda, he has changed it a lot. I didn't had the time to read it with detail, but he has.
Ray has done a lot of research. It's impossible that he knows the Greek history they way we do, except if he studied it in university.
We are here to correct him, if we think that something is wrong or ask him for example why he writes this or that, that way ???

the origin of the word "rembet" is not clear. It means "misery, of the gutter" in old Turkish (today we don't use this word)

Some also claim that it may have derived from Serbian word "rebenk" which means rebel.

Turks used to name irregular military "rebet soldiers", which here means those that are against the authority.

Another common view is that it derived from the word "harabat" (ruins, tavern)

Some say it derived from "rebevelo", which makes the most sense I guess cuz dictionary meaning of rembet/rebet is the one who doesnt think of the future, idling dreamer.

Originally Posted by Koukla

Some also claim that it may have derived from Serbian word "rebenk" which means rebel.

Actually, the word is "rebenok" ("ребенок") and it's Russian, not Serbian (there's no such word in Serbian). And it doesn't mean "rebel", but "child". Ребята (rebyata) = παιδιά. It derives from the Old Bulgarian word "rab", modern Bulgarian - "rob", which means "slave". "Rob" became "reb" in Russian due to the vowel assimilation.

In my opinion, "ribat" is the most likely origin. It's not clear of course, and is a matter of dispute.

I found it in an article. What's ribat then? I have no idea about Russian, Serbian,n Bulgarian etc.....

I want to point out that I find this topic very intersting and its like a research you are all doing.

Thanks for so many helpful information!

Originally Posted by Koukla

I found it in an article. What's ribat then? I have no idea about Russian, Serbian,n Bulgarian etc.....

"Ribat" means "hostel, hospice". It's an Arabic term for a small fortification, that used to house military volunteers (hence the rebet asker). Later on ribats became hostels for voyagers and refuges for mystics. The Persian "rebat" means "caravanserai".
Rebat is used in Spanish in the form "rebato", which has the meaning of "sudden attack".

How about the Turkish "rabıtasız"? :Р

What dictionary says "rempetis" is "idling dreamer"?

Hmm I think the meanings "carefree, the one who is against the authority" make more sense? (all these terms are found in urban Turkish dictionaries but here as well: http://wiki.phantis.com/index.php/Rebetiko)

Anyway, I will ask a Turkish musician who plays this music..

Btw I had no idea what rabıtasız meant So I checked it out (must be an outdated word) Apparently it means irrelevant; inconsistent.

So does rebevelo exist? (or sb made that up as well)

Originally Posted by Koukla

Btw I had no idea what rabıtasız meant So I checked it out (must be an outdated word) Apparently it means irrelevant; inconsistent.

So does rebevelo exist? (or sb made that up as well)

Yeah, it's an Ottoman Turkish word. Yes, that's the meaning, and it could also mean "someone who is inconsistent in his behavior, flighty, not as should be".

Well, I presume that "rebevelo" (never heard of it before) is actually "rebelevo" (ρεμπελεύω). "Rebelos" in Greek means "good for nothing, loser, slob, wastrel, idler, tembel".

By the way, the Babiniotis dictionary seems to accept the ribat derivation.

I'm impressed by your knowledge. Rempelevo sounds logical to me.

Nah, I'm just buried in a pile of dictionaries.

The problem with "rempelevw" is that /l/ cannot turn into /t/.

Come again?