Greek Given Names

[Frankie Jasmine]

Is there a basic rule about Greek "first names"? For example, some ATL members' names are:

Amethystos
Mixlopoulos
Zaknythos
(These are "online names")

However, when I make a personal post TO one of them directly . . . what are the rules about changing the name in that case?
I speak English only, and some German. In those languages, names do not change whether you are speaking about someone or to someone; the given name is the same.

Still, how does one know how to write/say the name in speaking/writing directly to that one from the given name itself? Is the ending different if the name is of a male or female? Otherwise, what is the rule to make the proper change? And are there other forms of how names are used?

I know this sounds terribly elementary, but I know nothing about Greek. This information would be very useful to me.

[Amethystos]

Is there a basic rule about Greek "first names"?
I know this sounds terribly elementary, but I know nothing about Greek. This information would be very useful to me.

Wellcome Frankie to Greek translations section.
First of all I wanna APOLOGIZE for not answering this earlier. (On vacation....)
This does NOT sound elementary.

After saying that
"Greek nouns are inflected by case and number. In addition each noun belongs to one of three genders: masculine, feminine and neuter.
Within each of the three genders, there are several sub-groups (declension classes) with different sets of inflectional endings."
(grammar's ... blablabla)

I have to say to you just one thing.

"Babies learn to listen/speak their mother-language, without any knowledge of grammar or syntax"

Language itself is the medium of our communication, so, there are two different tasks:
One is to communicate and the other is to know why do we communicate in this way.

I'm always trying to convince people that, as for Greek,
it is better to try to communicate via a continuous exercise method, rather than having to know
all grammar and syntax rules.

In other words .... "Prefer NATURE'S WAY"

For example, some ATL members' names are:[/B]

Amethystos
Mixlopoulos
Zaknythos
(These are "online names")

However, when I make a personal post TO one of them directly . . . what are the rules about changing the name in that case?
I speak English only, and some German. In those languages, names do not change whether you are speaking about someone or to someone; the given name is the same.

Still, how does one know how to write/say the name in speaking/writing directly to that one from the given name itself? Is the ending different if the name is of a male or female? Otherwise, what is the rule to make the proper change??

I have to say that most Greeks know English and we have no worries about the way
you're talking to us via the use of the declension of vocative class.

The names you wrote is a wanderfull example of complexity....
Even if, to your eyes, look and sound related, there are trully big differences.

Amethystos is the masculine name of a stone!
Michalopoulos is a masculine surname (Mixa borrowed it from an old singer )
And Zakynthos is a feminine name of an island. (The place where our friend lives...)

For these examples the answer is:
Amethystos -> Amethyste
Michalopoulos -> Michalopoule
Zakynthos -> Zakynthos (but only poetical may someone address to an island)
So in user Zakynthos case, it's better to call him "Zantenian" ("a man from Zakynthos")

Closing this, I found for you some links about declension of nouns in Greek.
1. Our Maria's excellent work (if you wanna learn more scroll up or down) -> http://www.allthelyrics.com/forum/le...tml#post332228
2. "Synoptic" declension of Greek nouns in English -> http://www.greekgrammar.eu/pdffiles/nouns.pdf
3. Wikipedia's link for Greek grammar (scroll down till you find the "Nouns") -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Greek_grammar

And are there other forms of how names are used

What do you mean?
________________________________

Wellcome again Frankie. Hope I helped a bit!

[Frankie Jasmine]

Allow me to answer your last question first. I will use an English name, then you can explain using Greek names.

* John is my friend.
* Allow me to introduce John to you.
* Let's talk about John. [John is not there.]
* Mary's John [meaning someone very close to Mary--a steady boyfriend, husband, or son] is what's meant.


(1) Is declension used to change the "given name" in any other grammatical circumstance besides speaking directly to the person himself/herself?

(2) In all other grammatical settings, is the "given name" used as presented, for example, on ATL?

(3) In German, "common nouns" have the three genders. The only way to learn the gender and the article before the noun--is to learn each word's gender individually--a/the table, a/the house, a/the flower, or a/the car. Is it the same with Greek proper names?--That the spelling of the name cannot help me to know the gender? That you must learn gender of each one individually?

(4) Is the declension always the same for male/ female/ neuter?

(5) Can a female have a "male" name or a male a "female" name or anyone have a "neuter" proper name, for example?


Actually, I think the original question coming from an American SEEMS elementary! :S D However, the answer in Greek is for me quite complex!! I need some time to absorb this new Greek information and to study the links you've provided to me. (Perhaps all these answers are in the links--if so, then I'll study that first . . . then see if I "get" it!)

My original goal, was to be able to address Greek friends personally with the proper declension, e.g., in posts or PMs. And to have the correct way to say it if referring to such a person in the "third person." This is completely foreign to us who speak the comparatively new and simplified form of grammar found in the English language.

_ _ _ _ _


Now, for what should have been first! Thank you very much for the clear explanation of Greek names!
I look forward to understanding the principles that you outlined. At the very least, I can learn the Greek screen names of each person and how to address each individual person-to-person (even if there are not simple rules to understand the declension by looking at the name alone).

I'm appreciative of the time you took to help me. I want to learn something, at least. It is only polite, respectful, and good manners to address each person appropriately according to their own language (my personal feeling).

[Maviii]

Thanks frankie for bringing up this subject which is really mass confusion to us ''non greeks''
and thank you Amethystos for this nice explanation really appreciated

but there is something i would like to add or better say ask
now lets say your real name is Amethystos
but when some one call you they will not spell the S in the end right ??
i mean they should call u amethysto .. or this doesnt include to this name
because sotiris aka safe1 once told me
when calling him its not right to spell the whole name as its written
so its should be ----> as sotiri not sotiris
but when written there is an S in the end so it sound as formal or god knows why

pls clarify this to me ..correct me if am mistaken
coz i dont want to mess up and complicate it more here

thanks in advance

[Mixalopoulos]

Hi Maviii, what Sotiris told you was correct.

His name is Sotiris, and when we speak about him we say Sotiris. But, if we address him, we say Sotiri.

The same applies, for example, with the name Nikos, when addressing him you would say Niko, and so on.

Hope this helps.

[Maviii]

Hi Maviii, what Sotiris told you was correct.

His name is Sotiris, and when we speak about him we say Sotiris. But, if we address him, we say Sotiri.

The same applies, for example, with the name Nikos, when addressing him you would say Niko, and so on.

Hope this helps.

yes it helps
but does this apply to all names that end with S
like your nickname and Amethystos nickname ?

[Mixalopoulos]

No, in this case it only applies to first names. My username is a surname. It comes from Panagiotis Mixalopoulos. So the name Panagiotis when addressing would be Panagioti, or Pano or Taki, but we won't go into that at this stage!

[Maviii]

ok thanks

[Frankie Jasmine]

No, in this case it only applies to first names. My username is a surname. It comes from Panagiotis Mixalopoulos. So the name Panagiotis when addressing would be Panagioti, or Pano or Taki, but we won't go into that at this stage!

Oh, my goodness! Now I'm in deep dirt!!! Again. Amethyste!!! Help me! Mixalopoulososososossssssss is scaring me!!!!!!!!!!

[Mixalopoulos]

Hi Big Sis, no need to be scared.

Panos and Takis are derivatives of Panagiotis. For example in English, Dιck is short for Richard, and Bob is short for Robert. For non English speaking people it can be hard to understand how Dιck comes from Richard, and so the same applies to Panagiotis.

[Amethystos]

Allow me to answer your last question first. I will use an English name, then you can explain using Greek names.

* John is my friend.
* Allow me to introduce John to you.
* Let's talk about John. [John is not there.]
* Mary's John [meaning someone very close to Mary--a steady boyfriend, husband, or son] is what's meant.

First of all John and Mary in Greek is Yiannis and Maria

* John is my friend. * Allow me to introduce John to you. * Let's talk about John. [John is not there.] * Mary's John

* Yiannis is my friend. * Allow me to introduce Yianni to you. * Let's talk about Yianni. [Yiannis is not there.] * Maria's Yiannis

BUT

When we wanna address to John we say "Hi Yianni"

(1) Is declension used to change the "given name" in any other grammatical circumstance besides speaking directly to the person himself/herself?

As for "given names" ... YES!

In the above example Yianni stayed the same ... but as for Peter -> Petros

Nominative Genitive Accusative Vocative

Petros Petrou Petro Petro

So in this case Genitive changes Petros to Petrou
Car of Peter -> Car of Petrou

(2) In all other grammatical settings, is the "given name" used as presented, for example, on ATL?

When some Greek wanna register in a forum, he usually prefers a noun in Nominative class.

(3) In German, "common nouns" have the three genders. The only way to learn the gender and the article before the noun--is to learn each word's gender individually--a/the table, a/the house, a/the flower, or a/the car. Is it the same with Greek proper names?--That the spelling of the name cannot help me to know the gender? That you must learn gender of each one individually?

Yes, like French you have to know the gender of every noun individually.
Spelling might be helpfull but you have to exercise your eyes A LOT!
Knowing articles will surely help!

(4) Is the declension always the same for male/ female/ neuter?

Nope! Here are some examples of ALL masculine nouns' declension in Greek -> http://www.foundalis.com/lan/grkn_mas.htm#patt_os

(5) Can a female have a "male" name or a male a "female" name or anyone have a "neuter" proper name, for example?

I squeezed my mind but I can't recall a single case.... So the answer is "No"

Actually, I think the original question coming from an American SEEMS elementary! :S D However, the answer in Greek is for me quite complex!! I need some time to absorb this new Greek information and to study the links you've provided to me. (Perhaps all these answers are in the links--if so, then I'll study that first . . . then see if I "get" it!)

DO NOT STUDY!
I repeat....
DO NOT STUDY!

These are answers for people that NEED to study Greek because they have to!
These are links that I provided just to see that there's no way to understand such things
UNLESS you have a need to communicate via Greek.
But EVEN IF you understand these ... you still have to exercise A LOT.
So for everyone that wants to learn this languange I insist that
"He only has to exercise and ask as many questions as possible"

So your answer WAS NOT elementary and the answer IS MORE THAN complex.

My original goal, was to be able to address Greek friends personally with the proper declension, e.g., in posts or PMs. And to have the correct way to say it if referring to such a person in the "third person." This is completely foreign to us who speak the comparatively new and simplified form of grammar found in the English language.

Exactly!
So, if you wanna learn ... ask the one you're talking to, about each seperate case!

Now, for what should have been first! Thank you very much for the clear explanation of Greek names!
I look forward to understanding the principles that you outlined. At the very least, I can learn the Greek screen names of each person and how to address each individual person-to-person (even if there are not simple rules to understand the declension by looking at the name alone).

I'm appreciative of the time you took to help me. I want to learn something, at least. It is only polite, respectful, and good manners to address each person appropriately according to their own language (my personal feeling).

First of all I'm embarrased cause the third link was wrong but I'll reedit it. (A "genuine" copy/paste "miracle" )
Secondly, ask people! It's the fastest way to learn the answers.
Thirdly I understand that it is awesome to try to speak to us using our language ,
and we are trully gratefull for every single effort of yours.
__________________________________________________ ____________

Thanks frankie for bringing up this subject which is really mass confusion to us ''non greeks''
and thank you Amethystos for this nice explanation really appreciated

Thank you for your interest Maviiita!

but there is something i would like to add or better say ask
now lets say your real name is Amethystos
but when some one call you they will not spell the S in the end right ??
i mean they should call u amethysto .. or this doesnt include to this name
because sotiris aka safe1 once told me
when calling him its not right to spell the whole name as its written
so its should be ----> as sotiri not sotiris
but when written there is an S in the end so it sound as formal or god knows why

pls clarify this to me ..correct me if am mistaken
coz i dont want to mess up and complicate it more here

Sotiris is Greek and of course he is right!
But as I explained to Frankie:
When you address to Amethystos (different declension than Sotiris) then
Where are you Amethystos? -> Where you Amethyste?

Instead when you say
I talked with Amethystos -> I talked with Amethysto

Mixa's orientation is right in most cases but...
but if we talk about a guy called "Charalambos" things change
Example: "Charalambe are you ok?" (while addressing to him)
__________________________________________________ ____________

Oh, my goodness! Now I'm in deep dirt!!! Again. Amethyste!!! Help me! Mixalopoulososososossssssss is scaring me!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for calling me "Amethyste"
You may only be scared WHEN you realize what you asked for....
In English you rightfully say "This is all Greek to me"

Remember ... "Keep asking"

[Frankie Jasmine]

Dear Amethyste,

Thank you very much. I will "take in" the information and the links you shared with us. But then, I will prefer your recommendation--ask each Greek person how to say his/her name when speaking directly! I thought perhaps there were some simple rules I could learn on my own, make the declension myself, and speak the correct name. But I am not "in" for that much work! I couldn't learn Turkish as I desired, but I learned something about Turkish and some Turkish words and phrases. Certainly this complex, ancient language is more than I want to handle. Still . . . learning a miniscule amount about Greek and discussing it with Greek friends is nice. For the reason you said, "IT IS GREEK TO ME," I will defo ask each person . . . although ideally I would like to have learned it myself if Greek were not so complex!! (And I may yet have questions.)

Oh, and let me not forget again: Thank you very much for all of your work to answer my questions. I have heard Europeans use the phrases you did (e.g., nominative; genetive; accusative; and vocative). I even learned what they meant when I was helping Germans to learn English and they were helping me to improve my German. But these were not words that were used to understand English grammar when we went to school, so even the meaning of those words eludes me once again!! Just letting you know "where" I am educationally. I think you know anyway--because you were so very careful not to scare me at first as Mixa did. But then when you gave me the whole link just about "masculine" names--you scared me too!!!

I'm just exaggerating. That is common with some Americans--especially "Southerners"!!! We like to do that for emphasis and humor. But not my husband. When I exaggerate in my daily speech with him, he calls those exaggerations "Little Frankies." "That's a Little Frankie!!!" he'll warn. Whereas, it is normal speech for me and not meant to be untrue. Such as, "I have a million things to do today." Then again, the poor guy is only half Southern; his mother was from the North. That explains it. He and I defo have a communication problem in even everyday exchanges of the English language!!

[Frankie Jasmine]

I will do a little practice, and Amethysto or someone else may correct me please:


A Greek man named Amethystos is registered on ATL.

Amethysto is my friend.

Amethyste, help! I need your assistance to speak Greek!

Thank you, Amethyste.

Dear Maviii, Amethysto is a good friend, don't you agree?

My friends are Maviii and Amethysto.

Hey, Maviii and Amethyste, let's go out for coffee!


So my question is, only in what circumstances do I use "Amethystos" and why?

Is there any other declension for "Amethystos" besides Amethyste and Amethysto in normal useage?

[Frankie Jasmine]

***tee-hee-hee*** . . . I am thinking of Greek and English names . . . and I am remembering Mixalopoule [or "Taki"!!! ... there's a homonym for that in English that's funny!!! ] teasing me with "Jankie Frasmine" when we were yet new friends!!! A happy memory!!

[Frankie Jasmine]

Hi Big Sis, no need to be scared.

Panos and Takis are derivatives of Panagiotis. For example in English, Dιck is short for Richard, and Bob is short for Robert. For non English speaking people it can be hard to understand how Dιck comes from Richard, and so the same applies to Panagiotis.

I wanted to say to you what an interesting point you made here. This made me see English names from a non-English perspective.
The difference is, though, that in English it is merely a shortening of a "given name" into a nickname (and yes, it makes no sense, really, like "Elizabeth" and "Betsy"). Yet, nicknames have no import as far as English grammar principles.

Still . . . Point well-made; point well-received! Thank you.

[Amethystos]

I will do a little practice, and Amethysto or someone else may correct me please:


A Greek man named Amethystos is registered on ATL.

Amethysto is my friend.

Amethyste, help! I need your assistance to speak Greek!

Thank you, Amethyste.

Dear Maviii, Amethysto is a good friend, don't you agree?

My friends are Maviii and Amethysto.

Hey, Maviii and Amethyste, let's go out for coffee!


So my question is, only in what circumstances do I use "Amethystos" and why?

Is there any other declension for "Amethystos" besides Amethyste and Amethysto in normal useage?

I think that you ask about syntax rules.

We use a noun in Nominative when sentence's main verb refers to it. (Syntax subject) Example: Amethystos saw Frankie's post We use a noun in Genitive when to state it's possesion over something. Example: Amethystos saw Frankie's post We use a noun in Accusative when sentence's main verb has effect on it. (Syntax object) Example: Amethystos saw Frankie's post We use a noun in Vocative when we address to it. Example: Where are you Amethyste?

In Amethystos' case we have

Nom: Amethystos Gen: Amethystou Acc: Amethysto Voc: Amethyste

___________________________

As for your examples:

(A Greek man named) Amethystos is registered on ATL.
Is right since Amethystos is sentence's subject and you used Nominative.

Amethysto is my friend.
Is wrong since Amethystos is sentence's subject and you used Accusative.

Amethyste, help! I need your assistance to speak Greek!
and
Thank you, Amethyste.
Is right since you address to Amethystos and used Vocative.

(Dear Maviii,) Amethysto is a good friend(, don't you agree?)
Is wrong since Amethystos is sentence's subject and you used Accusative.

My friends are Maviii and Amethysto is equal to Maviii and Amethysto are my friends
Is wrong since Maviii and Amethystos are sentence's subjects and you used Accusative.

Hey, Maviii and Amethyste, let's go out for coffee!
Is right since you address to Maviii and Amethystos and used Vocative.


Ps. In Sotiris' case things are easier since all the classes are "Sotiri" except Nominative which is "Sotiris"

Nom: Sotiris Gen: Sotiri Acc: Sotiri Voc: Sotiri

[Mixalopoulos]

***tee-hee-hee*** . . . I am thinking of Greek and English names . . . and I am remembering Mixalopoule [or "Taki"!!! ... there's a homonym for that in English that's funny!!! ] teasing me with "Jankie Frasmine" when we were yet new friends!!! A happy memory!!

Big Sis, are you calling me "sticky" or "showing poor taste or style"

[Frankie Jasmine]

Big Sis, are you calling me "sticky" or "showing poor taste or style"

Never would you ever be "tacky"!!! And I will not call you that! However, you do understand the word correctly, li " " le bro! [Sotiris can explain that one!]

"Tacky" is a Southern word, and it carries with it a sense of not only showing poor taste or style, but a near total lack of it, based upon the way a person presents herself/himself, even on one occasion. It is a bit funny, because "tacky" often is whispered among women about another woman who has shocked their sensibilities. E.g., a woman comes into a grocery store wearing a bathing suit. Or someone's scratching his hair the whole time he's eating his food. Or she is boldly approaching a man with no sense of being "lady-like," without charm and with "low" intent.

You truly had it nailed, dear! I thought you might enjoy hearing the context in which it is usually used. And so you--in your wisdom, restraint, love-ableness, caring, and humor--would never be thought or spoken of as "tacky" [Taki]!!!

[Frankie Jasmine]

Amethyste, thank you very much. The lesson was directly and simply put. It makes sense to me as I read it. Now I need to absorb it and practice it.

Also, I understand why it would be awkward for me to use Amethystou--because the "ou" in your name indicates ownership. And in English we use either "apostrophe s" or in rare cases ending in "s" merely "apostrophe."

So, using English, speaking of Amethystos "genetive" [we learned it as "possessive"], would I say:

Have you seen Amethystou boat? -- In English, it just sounds better to say "Amethysto's boat."
I am thinking that using a personal Greek name in an English sentence might not require the Greek "genetive" case . . . ? What do you think?
___________

P.S. I will correct my incorrect sentences from the practice (above) on my next post.

[Amethystos]

Amethyste, thank you very much. The lesson was directly and simply put. It makes sense to me as I read it. Now I need to absorb it and practice it.

Splendid!

Also, I understand why it would be awkward for me to use Amethystou--because the "ou" in your name indicates ownership. And in English we use either "apostrophe s" or in rare cases ending in "s" merely "apostrophe."

So, using English, speaking of Amethystos "genetive" [we learned it as "possessive"], would I say:

Have you seen Amethystou boat? -- In English, it just sounds better to say "Amethysto's boat."
I am thinking that using a personal Greek name in an English sentence might not require the Greek "genetive" case . . . ? What do you think?
___________

P.S. I will correct my incorrect sentences from the practice (above) on my next post.

Both Genitive and Accusative classes sound BAD in english;
and mostly in Accusative's case the effect is awfull to a Greek's ear,
who has learnt to add article before a noun of this class.
(We almost always say "I saw ton Amethysto" and not "I saw Amethysto")

Advice:
It's better to use only Nominative in every english sentence
EXCEPT when you're addressing to sb when you could use Vocative!
(That was your original question I suppose )