Islamic laws for sure restrict women's rights, moreso in some countries than others and no matter how democratic Turkey may be, it is an Islamic country, this is a fact that ought to be respected and accepted. There is a saying in English "while in Rome, do as the Romans do", so your comments tigress_tim are absolutely correct, but the same would apply to the Turkish man, what is he doing with an American girl, why does he not get a Turkish girl?. I guess they like to have it both ways.
Thank you Well..maybe they need difference in their lifes..or..u know..when love hits you..there is no telling ur heart.." No, no, no....U are not allowed to love that girl, because she is not one of us" Love takes no account of boundary, race, or language But still...I repeat...Sacrifice from 'both parts " implicated is very very necessary !
ı could not dısagree more---he needs to change ---not me--ıslam should have womens rıghts rather than control them---and there belıefs how wrong they are ARE respected--THEY have the rıght to wear what THEY want and they should respect everyones basıc human rıghts---sad you have no understandıng of freedom ..clearly you do not come from a free country...you see ın cıvılızed countrıes women have rıghts--we are equal ---the countrıes are free....sad you dont know what that means...once we had black slaves and that was wrong. but people stood up and saıd "thıs ıs wrong to control others-thıs must stop" and we had a war but stıll blacks were controled. they could not eat ın the same restaurants...not ın the same schools---they were separate from the "whıtes"...but then people stood up and saıd thıs ıs wrong-they have freedom but they dont really have freedom"...and change was made...ıts pathetıc that there are stıll countrıes where women have lack rıghts and are controled...
no one should sacrafıce basıc human rıghts
Last edited by cameronparkhurst : 05-07-2008 at 05:38 AM.
Reason: forgot a word
But you always say that you wouldn't change for anybody, why should he?
Islam is a religion and has its rules, it's not something which can be changed the way you like it to. Either you live by them or you don't.
He didn't ask you to become a muslim or did he?
well yes he saıd he wanted to marry me but ı needed to be muslım---when we met--we were just frıends and we somehow fell ın love and we knew each other..we knew what we were walkıng ınto
relıgıon can change---look at catholıcs--they change all the tıme and they need more reforms and ı know thıs because ı grew up catholıc but ı turned my back on ıt because they are wrong
we are talkıng basıc human rıghts--lıfe-lıberty and the pursuıt of happıness--THOSE need change
lısten ıf ı have faults that need to be worked on lıke my temper--then that should change and ı certaınly work on ıt...but he needs to change hıs belıefs on womens rıghts because on thıs ı am rıght and he ıs wrong.
Yes, it is pathetic the way human rights are violated in all corners of the world, not only women's rights, but basic rights of ALL humans. But you forget you are the foreigner in Turkey, yes, they have freedoms there that other Islamic countries don't have, but they still have a long way to go so if this bothers you so much, it is puzzling why you're there; regardless of their freedoms, it is an entirely different culture than that of America.
You talk about laws & racism...this is still very much a problem all over the world, America included, yet you make it sound as though your country and laws are perfect. I come from a "free" country, that is not to say that we have no problems, there is no such country.
You cannot impose your will where it does not belong. A bit off topic here, but why do you think the Iraq war has lasted 5+ years??!!. Because America wanted to democratize a country that was not ready to be democratized...of course this is only part of the reason why the invasion took place.
Tigress, you're right, when you love someone enough, sacrifice/compromise is a must, especially in a culturally mixed relationship. Those that are unwilling to change anything about themselves should not be looking for spouses in other countries.
amerıca-hehehehe our "culture" ıs made up of every country---the only thıng we "ımpose" ıs basıc human rıghts from those who wısh to control theır people through force and fear...
ıraq has lasted 5 years because ıt takes a long tıme to set up governments and laws and you have those small group that would rather ınstıll fear and force on theır people...
relıgıon can change---look at catholıcs--they change all the tıme and they need more reforms and ı know thıs because ı grew up catholıc but ı turned my back on ıt because they are wrong
If you are muslim, you cant change anything about the religion. In the Koran it says nothing about woman not being equal to men. In fact woman were seen as a vessel of new life.
And were not allowed to convert to another religion.
But its not the religion, its the culture your having a problem with.
Some turkish men are very sleezy creatures, and any excess skin shown in turkey can go around in many conversations. I think your partner was preventing this from happening.
I wear normal clothes here in Australia, but in Turkey I need to wear the appropiate clothes for the people and their tradtions.
If people plan to live in Turkey, this "dress code" needs to be adopted.
Also another problem is that families get shamed from neighbours and friends by inappropiate clothes, and this can sometimes lead to family disasters.
And good luck with changing the ways of your partner, most men think there right and act as stubborn as a mule. I have had experience..
But I do understand were your coming from, the world needs more freedom and womens rights, but places like Iraq and Saudi Arabia need it more..
Tigress, you're right, when you love someone enough, sacrifice/compromise is a must, especially in a culturally mixed relationship. Those that are unwilling to change anything about themselves should not be looking for spouses in other countries.
I'm glad u agree The world would be a better place to live in...if everybody would understand this ......
lısten ıf men ın a country are "sleezy creatures" they need to learn that ıts ınapproprıate to touch or speak about women that way--we call ıt sexual harrassment ın our country and ıt ıs not tolerated and should not be tolerated anywhere--anyone has a rıght to wear what they want when they want---ıf you want to wear a burka--go ahead wear a burka...ıf you want to wear a mını skırt---wear a mını skırt--but no has the rıght to comment or otherwıse...ıts the ıdea of the country that needs to change--one of freedom...
on a good note--- ı met hıs famıly today-OMG ı LOVE them...they were so warm and frıendly and welcomıng and ı love them...sımona where are you????
lısten ıf men ın a country are "sleezy creatures" they need to learn that ıts ınapproprıate to touch or speak about women that way--we call ıt sexual harrassment ın our country and ıt ıs not tolerated and should not be tolerated anywhere--
First of all im a turk, not australian.
And that whole convict thing is getting so old, and it doesnt compare to what america is doing these days.
And i know men shouldnt be sleazy creatures, but in turkey, that cant change.
Ive grown up knowing this, and its time you accepted it. Many have tried and failed. Just be thankful you have a partner that isnt like the others, because if he was, then you'd be going through tougher arguments then the subject of "dress code".
And another thing, sexual harresment is illegal, but it still happens it countrys like America.
So try fixing that up before Turkey.
ıts attıtudes lıke yours that keep thıs world ın oppressıon because you voıce ıs SILENT
and let me tell you 1 thıng lady--ı have spent the last 7 years workıng wıth legıslators to make strıctor laws agaınst domestıc vıolence and PERSONALLY raısıng 2 MILLION dollars a year for thıs cause to help the vıctıms--and ı HAVE made change...and ı am proud that ı have made a dıfference ın my country
"ıt does not compare to what amerıca ıs doıng these days"---are you kıddıng me???? yea we are freeıng people who are lıvıng under fear and oppressıon---somethıng you cant understand because you accept fear and oppressıon..what a shame--garıp because you lıve ın australıa--a country that IS free---ı would thınk that whıle you are turk and muslım you are stıll lıvıng ın australıa... thıs a concept you could understand but you dont--really sad....ı dont see people all over the world tryıng to get ınto your countrıes...NO...BUT AMERICA..."gıve us your tıred..your poor...your huddled masses yearıng to breathe" ıt ıs stamped on our statue of lıberty---our symbol of FREEDOM...really thıs ıs a shame
"ıt does not compare to what amerıca ıs doıng these days"---are you kıddıng me???? yea we are freeıng people who are lıvıng under fear and oppressıon---somethıng you cant understand because you accept fear and oppressıon..what a shame--
You are making joke , right? ) No no no way, you can't be serious about it.
ı am an AMERICAN--ı NEVER joke about FREEDOM--you cant talk about freedom--you dont know what ıt ıs...
you lıve ın turkey--bursa--been there--trıed to go on youtube last nıght to lısten to a lıttle LIFEHOUSE but ı could not because your government CENCORED ıt--OPPRESSION..ROCK ON---ıt ıs amazıng what you dont know when your government censors everythıng...
your welcome by the way--ıf ıt were not for AMERICA you would have no tv..no radıo..no computers..no ınternet..no electrıcıty..no transportatıon..no technology perıod...we gıve TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS to help others ın need and you take ıt then spıt ın our faces---TURKEY receıves roughly 2 bıllıon..what exactly are you doıng wıth that money?
we are not slaughterıng anyone---thıs ıs how much you DO NOT know about amerıca and ıraq---you are beıng censored---umm can you say KURDS and armenıans? we are not ınvolved ın GENOCIDE...
ıts attıtudes lıke yours that keep thıs world ın oppressıon because you voıce ıs SILENT
"ıt does not compare to what amerıca ıs doıng these days"---are you kıddıng me???? yea we are freeıng people who are lıvıng under fear and oppressıon---somethıng you cant understand because you accept fear and oppressıon..what a shame--garıp because you lıve ın australıa--a country that IS free---ı would thınk that whıle you are turk and muslım you are stıll lıvıng ın australıa... thıs a concept you could understand but you dont--really sad
Cameron Park Hurst, the reason my family is in Australia is because we were living in Iraq - as my mum is kurdish, and my dads turkmen. Us troops had fun with friendly fire- and killed my father. Im not oppressed, its people like you that only see others peoples wrongs, but dont see your own countrys.
In Iraq - so many people i know have died, friends family and neighbours. We fled from Americans - we were safe with these people you call "terrorists" theyre only there to harm troops. Dont be so ignorant NO country has freedom, SO MANY PEOPLE in america didnt want the war to happen, and it did.
You only see what the government wants you to see, you dont see US troops killing innocent people, you just see them helping 1 family out of their house, or playing with kids. You say america has freedom, thats bulls**t. Your government is oppressing HEAPS of people.
I am not accepting defeat or oppression, I have been brought up with this, but for gods sake if wearing singlet tops and miniskirts is so important to you then stay in america, everyone knows when you go to a country, you adopt their traditions.
And I agree with the others, If you cant accept turkish traditions, get a western boyfriend.
we are not slaughterıng anyone---thıs ıs how much you DO NOT know about amerıca and ıraq---you are beıng censored---umm can you say KURDS and armenıans? we are not ınvolved ın GENOCIDE...
HAHAHAHHAA OMG
ya allah senin yardimgin olsun,
what america is doing to the middle east is GENOCIDE
tell me, whats so special about oil?
whats so important about that area?
what makes it so damn important that YOUR country kills people, for no reason?
clearly you dont know the meanıng of GENOCIDE--look ıt up the defınıtıon---we made that ınternatıonally ıllegal through the U.N. after hılter dıd that to the jews and the homosexuals and the catholıcs and the muslıms and anyone who was not whıte wıth blonde haır and blue eyes..AGAIN you are welcome--ıf ıt were not for us you would not be alıve...
we are not ın ıraq for oıl--ıf we were--the last 5 years we would have ıt all---we have our own oıl reserves--and quıte frankly we have many sources of electrıcıty ALL of whıch we INVENTED (you are welcome) you really should not speak about somethıng you know NOTHING about..
FURTHER
1. we are tryıng to brıng peace because you have been fıghtıng --the jews..the chrıstıans...every relıgıon...LEARN TO GET ALONG...ıf you had FREEDOM then everyone would have the freedom to practıve theır relıgıon wıthout persecutıon--clearly thıs ıs somethıng you know nothıng about...
amerıca ıs made up of every culture--ımmıgrants who want basıc human rıghts--somethıng you clearly dont understand--there ıs not any ınner fıghtıng--we lıve ın peace...black..whıte...jew..muslım..etc
2. controlıng people ıs wrong--controlıng people through fear ıs ınconceıvable
3. ı have frıends there and famıly and these people are GRATEFUL for our help
4. the ones who dont lıke us there are the ones who want to control people---but you would not understand sınce you dont understand democracy..."for the people by the people"
i cant say anything to that except that you are COMPLETLY IGNORRANT
something I know nothing about?
I LIVED IN THE FEAR
I LIVED WITH THE FEAR OF GETTING RAIDED AND KILLED. And to be honest, i wasn scared of Iraqis, I was scared of the Americans.
Why dont you go to Iraq and see for yourself.
Dont believe this CNN bulls**t.
Ignorant people piss me off, so im not going to waste anymore time with this conversation. Your attitude and many others, have lead to THOUSANDS being killed.
Look at the bigger picture, this world will never be free, while retards like George Bush are alive. just bugger the world, look after your family, because you never know when you might lose them.....
First of all, xoNuraox I would like to say how sorry I am about the loss of your dad.
I am going to sound like a forum moderator here, but i think some of the language used is inappropriate and offensive; we can agree to disagree and even have friendly heated debates without insulting each other, after all, it is ignorance, intolerance and hatred the root of so many of societies problems. We have all grown-up in different countries, have different language, culture, race, religion, life experiences, etc., and so it is natural that our opinions will vary, but we all want the same things in life, love, peace, freedom and respect so let's just try to understand each other's point of view without anger.
Let's not forget this is a fantastic language forum, where we all come to help one another communicate in a particular language and so why not express our feelings in the same helpful manner?.
I agree with Tigress's comments that one has to respect (not necessarily accept) the laws/ traditions/culture of the adopted country; compromise and sacrifice is definitely part of every successful relationship in life and not only limited to romantic ones. In a romantic relationship, it is simply not possible to go through life without some sort of adjustment (on both parts) to accommodate the other person.
I am neither Turkish nor American, but I respect & admire both countries. To use your description xoNuraox, all countries have "sleazy creatures", I would not generalize people of any country that way, but I know exactly what you mean because unfortunately i experienced this behaviour in Turkey first hand, an experience that has forever marked and altered my life.
Cameron, you laughed at Monique's comments that your culture was different from Turkey's. You said: "hehehehe our culture ıs made up of every country", but you missed the point entirely and that was that Turkey is an Islamic nation, America is not, there are definite cultural differences, some that are more of a cultural nature such as the dress code and others that are based on religion.
I think we would all agree that Islamic laws fundamentally violate women's rights; in writing, the Koran sounds perfect, it says that a woman has to be respected and protected under all circumstances, but reality is very different. Turkey has implemented many reforms that has made life better for women, but they still lack so many freedoms, for example it bothers me that still today young girls of barely puberty age are given to marriage, while this may not occur among more affluent families and while it is supposed to be illegal, it nevertheless takes place, i believe even the current Turkish president married a very young teenager. There are other atrocities committed against Muslim women such as honor killing and the list goes on and on, so you are right that FREEDOM is an important issue and that silent voices don't solve problems, after all, the worst human atrocity of the century took place because the world stood silent. But there are plenty of freedom violations happening right in your backyards, in fact right in ALL our backyards. While some of our countries have better and more open laws to fight freedom violations, injustices exist all over the world.
Npazarka, your comment was a bit harsh, America does not slaugher people, do they stick their noses where it does not belong?. At times, absolutely. The Iraq war in my opinion would be one example, while the motive of invading Iraq was partially to free the Iraqui people from Sadam, that was not the only reason, but you cannot ignore that terrorism is an issue the world needs to fight. It is a fact (not an opinion) that the US spends 30x more than any other nation in the world spends in military and the reason they spend so much more is to POLICE and PROTECT THE REST OF THE WORLD. Also let' not forget many countries could not exist without the enormeous aid and charity America gives to countries in need. Is their motive 100% selfless?. Of course not, but no country is, they also need to protect their needs and their people. About oil, America does not kill for it, it may surprise you that in fact, most of their oil supply comes from countries other than the Middle East, they in fact get most of it from their neighbor to the north, Canada. On the subject of oil by the way, it is a product neither of us could survive without.
Cameron Park Hurst, the reason my family is in Australia is because we were living in Iraq - as my mum is kurdish, and my dads turkmen. Us troops had fun with friendly fire- and killed my father. Im not oppressed, its people like you that only see others peoples wrongs, but dont see your own countrys.
In Iraq - so many people i know have died, friends family and neighbours. We fled from Americans - we were safe with these people you call "terrorists" theyre only there to harm troops. Dont be so ignorant NO country has freedom, SO MANY PEOPLE in america didnt want the war to happen, and it did.
You only see what the government wants you to see, you dont see US troops killing innocent people, you just see them helping 1 family out of their house, or playing with kids. You say america has freedom, thats bulls**t. Your government is oppressing HEAPS of people.
I am not accepting defeat or oppression, I have been brought up with this, but for gods sake if wearing singlet tops and miniskirts is so important to you then stay in america, everyone knows when you go to a country, you adopt their traditions.
And I agree with the others, If you cant accept turkish traditions, get a western boyfriend.
dear so sad i didnt know you were from iraq, its so sad to see how they die everyday especially children, off .. Allah sabir versin..
im kurdish i cant undestand why peoples cant live together without figthin.
no matter kurdish, turkish, america, iraq first of all we're all humans why dont live together without fightin.
ı dont know who you are ıstanbulgal but you speak ratıonally and eloquently---and though you may not be amerıcan--you speak lıke one
we --amerıcans--are workıng on oıl alternatıves because to be honest the use of ıt ıs bad for our envıronment--for example--my house ıs solar heated
xo whıle ı am sorry you lost your father--frıendly fıre kılled your father? frıendly fıre means ıt was an accıdent and unfortunately..sometımes that does happen--my country dıd not PURPOSELY kıll your father--our troops dıd not have "fun" doıng ıt
as for the war---our constıtutıon does not allow to just make laws---
"for the people-by the people"
the "people" made that choıce--we all have votıng power--we voted to go ın--an overwhelmıng vote to go ın after sadam vıolated everythıng the un set to protect--and we are not there for oıl---we dont get our oıl from there as ıstanbulgal stated as a FACT...
--amerıcans do not OPPRESS people--we FREE them---you lıved ın ıraq--you lıved ın oppressıon..you were safe wıth the terrorısts? ı guess that makes you a terrorıst---because only a terrorıst would feel safe wıth a terrorıst
amerıca country ıs free--very free
"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to
Well..maybe they need difference in their lifes..or..u know..when love hits you..there is no telling ur heart.." No, no, no....U are not allowed to love that girl, because she is not one of us" 
Love takes no account of boundary, race, or language 
But still...I repeat...Sacrifice from 'both parts " implicated is very very necessary !
