Haiku

Originally Posted by OrchestraInside

Both 'a-wai-ting' and 'ne-ar-by' are 3 syllables, plus 'new' and 'spring' = 8.

No, sorry, "nearby" is only two syllables. So amaryn's poem is 3-7-3. The vowel-blend ("ea") is pronounced as one syllable, so it's "near-by" (2 only). There are several words in English, I've noticed of late, that I thought had more syllables than they really [3 syllables; not a vowel-blend--go figure!--re-al-ly] do. I've been surprised. Usually Americans (Southerners) cut-off syllables; I guess in some cases, we add them too...

Perfect red
On a blanket of snow
Still rabbit

Far too late. Try:

Shock of birth
New star arrives tonight
An old man

I looked it up, and it's true - 'fear', 'near' and even 'we're' are just one syllable, although for rhythmic purposes, I'd say one would be wise to sometimes count them as "one-and-a-half", as the time it takes to pronounce them really falls somewhere in between a short syllable such as "red" and a long one like "been". I guess I tend to count the schwa as a separate syllable when it follows a vowel. Lesson learned

an old man
with a virgin soul
twinkling eyes

Yes, I think we should stick with--not the "sound"--but the language-acceptable determination of a syllable. Now I begin to understand how/why the Japanese "on" and English syllable can never be equal. Even the sound of an English syllable is of varying "length" or sound.

Twinkling eyes
Of stars and planets
Watch our ways

P.S. What's a "schwa"?

P.P.S. Indeed you have a valid point, OI. We need not be "strict" here, but I did want the English pronunciation to be correct. English having descended from several other more complex languages, no wonder it's such a mish-mash of contradictions sometimes!

Schwa is an unstressed, indistinct vowel sound, the most common vowel sound in English, denoted as ə in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) and, in English, used in a number of positions. A few examples (though your dialect would determine whether or not these apply):

• like the 'a' in about [əˈbaʊt]
• like the 'e' in taken [ˈtʰeɪkən]
• like the 'i' in pencil [ˈpʰɛnsəl]
• like the 'o' in eloquent [ˈɛləkwənt]
• like the 'u' in supply [səˈplaɪ]
• like the 'y' in sibyl [ˈsɪbəl]

It is never stressed and always rather indistinctive. If it happens to be in the middle of a word, many English dialect omit it altogether - examples include choc(o)late, sep(a)rate, cam(e)ra and so forth.

watch our ways
o bright Sirius
guard our paths

Guard our paths
Keeper of the forest
Grant egress

TY, for explaining, OI! That was very helpful. Sadly, yes, we often detach and throw away our syllables. Do you find this happens in other languages also? Or is it only in English? Also, in the "South" [sometimes nearly pronounced as two syllables by some Southerners! "Sow-eth"!!!) we add ones where there ought not be!

It happens a lot in a number of languages and is largely explained by one of the strongest forces in language evolution, assimilation. To put it very short, sounds tend to become more like neighbouring sounds. I don't know of any language with no assimilation, and it has been a major force in shaping every language I speak into their modern forms, and continues to contribute to their ongoing evolution. I suppose the underlying reason is that it makes speaking easier; essentially, you're using less muscle power by producing a near-lying sound rather than a completely different one much further away in your mouth.

Languages constantly evolve, but spelling may become a problem when spelling does not evolve. Modern English, for instance, largely uses late 15th century spelling; pronounciation has evolved by bounds and leaps, spelling very little. This makes it easier to backtrack words to their historical roots, made very visible by "txt spk" where ppl tnd 2 spl thngz mor lik their pronuncd - and making it more difficult to see how those words came to be that way, not to mention making it difficult to distinguish between forms with distinctive spelling, but not pronounciation ('their', 'there', 'they're' etc.). Most languages try to strike a middle ground between pronounciation and etymology (the history/origin of words) where, for example, English and French tend to be conservative and Nordic languages, for instance, more progressive.

I remember memorising "ennuyaient" when I was learning French at 16, and marvelling at how the French managed to place no less than five vowels in a row yet simply pronounce a simple triphthong (or more like a diphthong with a twist). At some point in the past, they did pronounce every single of those five vowels but became more economical over time

grant egress
I must walk in woods,
hear the birds

Ghaly addressed this issue regarding Turkish, which he strongly defends:

http://www.allthelyrics.com/forum/le...ve-suffix.html

Hear the birds'
Songs, in trees or on the wing
Listen well

Some countries tend to try to stall change more than others. All fail to stall changes in pronounciation, and, eventually, most fail to stall changes in spelling and grammar. The French are very particular, defending their spelling and grammar with vigour, and the Russians nearly as much; Swedes tend to take the opposite stance and allow change quite liberally. Eventually, all languages change - otherwise we wouldn't have the languages we have today

listen well
silence is speaking
more than words

Granted!

More than words
Broken shingles, drifting land
Tsunami

Dearest OI, we are far too serious--the two of us!--without VIvaP, aren't we?! Sorry I cannot spur better repartee. :S :l
Tonight is a cold, snowy night. I'll soon retire to my next 1800s classic novel! See you later . . .

She does have that light and quick tone neither of us do. Still, can't hang out on the interwebz every night!

I'm listening to Dan Simmon's Hyperion while figuring out my own novel bit by bit and playing strategy games. I like audiobooks, they spare my tired eyes a lot of trouble. If the book is a good one and of no more than medium length, I can do one book per day, otherwise a few per week. A lot of catching up to do

tsunami
heading towards us
we stand still

Originally Posted by OrchestraInside

She does have that light and quick tone neither of us do. Still, can't hang out on the interwebz every night!

Of course I can. I was simply a silent observer last night, but thank you both for missing my lightness. Frankie I assure you, I'm shallow

Originally Posted by OrchestraInside

savour

I loved the slight subtle spelling correction.

I was surprised to hear Ola say nearly was three syllables, I thought it was maybe a pronunciation thing? But then I assumed some would say it more rounded, ne-ear-ly. I'm with Frankie on this one, my 'near' sounds a bit like 'neh' to me.

p.s lol at poor amaryn being baffled by our random syllable count.

We stand still,
faces tilted upwards
gentle breeze

Mmh, I'm probably prone to a more careful pronounciation of things than native speakers. If English is a foreign language to you and you choose to model your pronounciation after BrE, Received Pronounciation is the obvious candidate to go for, and typically exercises a more careful pronounciation than do most English dialects. Shakespeare would probably have said that 'fear' has two syllables, but things have moved on since

gentle breeze
time evaporates
clouds of now

I really like that last line. Hate to be the one that kills it But it has to be done.

Clouds of now
a single moment
golden net

clouds of now
gentle rainfall untill dusk
rich colours



hi Viva! obviously been "at it" at the same time,lol. I like yours too

Urrgh... *thud* *splash* R.I.P.

I'm finding in myself an increasing need to read haiku/senryu in order to be able to write it. Like most things, skills generally grow mainly from observing skilled masters, and then, to a far lesser degree, from trying your own hand at it. Not the other way around. Of course, one can simply do this for fun, but unless I feel I am learning something, I tend to quickly feel that things get dull

This page gives an interesting historical account of how senryu has developed:
http://simplyhaiku.com/SHv3n3/featur...il_senryu.html

golden net
captures a black heart
you catch me

Darn. I'm getting slow!
Edit: No, it was amaryn who was slow Either way...

rich colours
the grey mist is gone
rainbow eyes

Hey it wasnt that bad

Well I hope you're learning stuff so you dont leave me in the lurch I tried to bring it back to nature, but you insist, senryu it is

You catch me,
quelled hopes flutter
Bring me back

Some of these early senryus are terribly hilarious. Like this one:

So as not to show
The public lavatory,
A cloud of cherry blossoms.

—Kenkabo (1870–1934)

bring me back
sparkling winter snow
bloody rain

loool I quite liked

Catching the thief
And looking at him, --
It was my own son!


Bloody rain!
Always in the way,
Let me go

A superbly succinct sense of humour in many of those poems

let me go
amigo
be a friend

Be a friend
Stab me in my back
Dont forget