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  1. #41
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    Thanks so much for the detailed answer! I do know a bit about the social stigma surrounding the Mizrahi pronunciation. My impression is that in the past there was a general disdain among the Ashkenazi elites towards anything that they considered "oriental" or "levantine". I have even seen excerpts from the writings of the founding Fathers (and Mothers!) like Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir, where you can find some pretty awful remarks about Jews from Arab countries. From personal experience I have gathered that even now there is a somewhat condescending attitude towards Mizrahi/Sephardi culture among some Israelis...for example, when I discussed my musical tastes with some (Ashkenazi) Israelis, they could not understand how I could listen to a "low quality" artist like Ofer Levi, who even sounds like an Arab when he sings! It seems that if you like Ofer, you're automatically regarded as a "frecha"!;-) I guess some artists are more accepted though...the ones who have adopted a more Western style than Ofer Levi's Turkish-Middle Eastern sound.

    I have a Swedish friend who goes to Israel twice a year and who loves Sarit Hadad and oriental music in general. She shares my experiences...she has gotten into quite heated arguments with her Israeli friends and acquaintances about the (perceived) inferiority of this style of music.

    I presume that in view of all this that children from first-generation Mizrahi families preferred to conform to the inofficial standard accent (although the eastern pronunciation is actually more correct, I think). And by the second or third generation I guess the Mizrahi accent has more or less disappeared. The reason I posed the question is that it seems to me that Yemenite Jews have kept the hets and ayins to a greater degree than other Jews from the Middle East, but I may be mistaken. For example, Liron Ramati does pronounce the hets and ayins when he sings, just like Eyal Golan and Shir Levi (who is quite young).

    Eva

  2. #42
    Senior Member bateli777's Avatar
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    Default Glikeria adds a special Greek flavour to an Israeli song







    Far far away at the top of the mountain
    The big eagle lives
    Deep deep inside the mountain
    The giant bear takes his nap
    Each animal has a hiding place
    From winds, fire , and from man
    And only I can't find
    A refuge and peace in this world

    In my dreams
    I see you
    When I wake up
    I will definitely find you
    Yes, only with you I'll find the perfect place to hide
    Yes, only with you I'll find peace and quiet in this world


    Even the smallest bird
    Has a sophisticated way
    To escape dangers
    And she suddenly disappears
    The ant has a narrow crack
    The rabbit has a crevice between rocks
    The moll has a soft burrow
    The chameleon has colors

    In my dreams
    I see you
    When I wake up
    I will definitely find you
    Yes, only with you I'll find the perfect place to hide
    Yes, only with you I'll find peace and quiet in this world


    Now it's clear
    To me no caves will be helpful
    Not big cliffs
    Or hidden burrows
    Only great love will protect me
    Will guard me from dangers


    In my dreams
    I see you
    When I wake up
    I will definitely find you
    Yes, only with you I'll find the perfect place to hide
    Yes, only with you I'll find peace and quiet in this world
    Last edited by bateli777; 07-05-2011 at 11:30 AM.
    Ploutarxos Gia Panta

  3. #43
    Senior Member bateli777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    Thanks so much for the detailed answer! I do know a bit about the social stigma surrounding the Mizrahi pronunciation. My impression is that in the past there was a general disdain among the Ashkenazi elites towards anything that they considered "oriental" or "levantine". I have even seen excerpts from the writings of the founding Fathers (and Mothers!) like Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir, where you can find some pretty awful remarks about Jews from Arab countries. From personal experience I have gathered that even now there is a somewhat condescending attitude towards Mizrahi/Sephardi culture among some Israelis...for example, when I discussed my musical tastes with some (Ashkenazi) Israelis, they could not understand how I could listen to a "low quality" artist like Ofer Levi, who even sounds like an Arab when he sings! It seems that if you like Ofer, you're automatically regarded as a "frecha"!;-) I guess some artists are more accepted though...the ones who have adopted a more Western style than Ofer Levi's Turkish-Middle Eastern sound.

    I have a Swedish friend who goes to Israel twice a year and who loves Sarit Hadad and oriental music in general. She shares my experiences...she has gotten into quite heated arguments with her Israeli friends and acquaintances about the (perceived) inferiority of this style of music.

    I presume that in view of all this that children from first-generation Mizrahi families preferred to conform to the inofficial standard accent (although the eastern pronunciation is actually more correct, I think). And by the second or third generation I guess the Mizrahi accent has more or less disappeared. The reason I posed the question is that it seems to me that Yemenite Jews have kept the hets and ayins to a greater degree than other Jews from the Middle East, but I may be mistaken. For example, Liron Ramati does pronounce the hets and ayins when he sings, just like Eyal Golan and Shir Levi (who is quite young).

    Eva
    Hi Eva

    You are right about the Yemenite pronounciation being the MOST ACCURATE one.
    Shir Levi will NOT DARE change his accent ...he lives in Rosh Ha'ayin...we all speak with chets..if someone changes his speech we know exactly to what this is related and it's considered a sign of weakness...so taking this step is difficult for singers from Rosh- Ha'ayin.

    His father THE ICONIC Yishay levi speaks properly and he has a lot to say about his son's career choices.
    Nati Levi , Shir's uncle and a successfull singer by his own rights, is also preserving the correct pronounciation.

    Yoav Yitshak is a bit different...and lately a mutual friend told me that he had been like that (I guess not comfortable in his skin) since High School. Funny thing is that Yoav's complexion is the darkest

    Yishay and Nati's dad is Sofer Stam (a religious man who writes Mezuzut and Torah books in the form of text written on gevils)

    The attitude towards Mizrachi music had changed since the breaking of Israeli TV monopoly.
    No more one channel that dictates musical and cultural preferences of its editors.

    When cellphones kicked in (3rd and 4th generations...MP ...video...ringtones etc) ...the revolotion had been completed.
    we WON !!!
    Eyal Golan was voted male singer of the DECADE.
    Sarit Hadad the same in her category.
    Dudu Aharon is singer of the year. He filled Ceseria and Nokia hall....

    A kid like Omer Adam has crazy numbers in ringtone sales (over 100,000) and he bypassed all the Ashkenazim...it reached a point that if an Ashkenazi wants to be successful they have to hook up with Mizrachi.

    Now there is a different type of tension. The singers who were mainstream have to fight for air time on TV.
    The music channel launched a series which was aimed at MAKING PEACE between Mizrachi singers and not Mizrachi.

    Of course it was well scripted and they all shook hands but in the next Independence Day celebrations Mizrachi singers will hop from one stage to another using helicopters while the Ashkenazim will keep complaining .

    This triumph is long due and it also makes a lot of sense. We live in the MIDDLE EAST ....this is the sound of our area...heritage...culture...Arab cousins's music .
    As far as I'm concerned this is the sound of PEACE.



    TV is finally commercial so they put what the people want.
    And the people want HAFLA. (we'll save criticism about commercial TV to another discussion )

    Eyal Golan is the most important agent in this change process...not because of his musical superiority but due to his strong and unequivocal take on this issue.

    Thanks to Eyal more and more Mizrachim are carrying themselves with more pride.
    Ploutarxos Gia Panta

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  5. #44
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    Hi again,

    You are of course totally right about the (long overdue) triumph of Mizrahi/Mediterranean music in Israel! It must feel great for veterans like Yishai Levi and Itzik Kalah to finally get the public exposure they deserve and the opportunity to appear at the big concert halls and venues like Caesaria. As you wrote, this turn towards a more Middle Eastern culture in Israel was probably inevitable...you can't make people erase their heritage that easily. My husband's grandparents were Black Sea (Pontic) Greeks who came from Turkey to Greece as refugees in the 1920's. Their children don't speak Turkish or the Pontic dialect any longer, but they still play Pontic music at their weddings and parties and even young people know the traditional dances-so the tradition is alive and well, even after 90 years!

    >Of course it was well scripted and they all shook hands but in the next Independence Day celebrations Mizrachi singers will hop from one stage to another >using helicopters while the Ashkenazim will keep complaining .

    LOL! You know, when people like Yehoram Gaon or Matti Caspi appear on Israeli television (I saw the clip on MAKO) and complain about Mizrahi music -I believe Caspi called it "zevel"- I'm thinking "sour grapes"! For decades these singers monopolized the media and the market and now they find themselves relegated to the margins...and they can't even rely on gigs on the wedding circuit, because who'd want Matti Caspi to play at their "simcha"?;-) I'm not saying that they are not good singers and musicians, but I think they should try to regain their audience with their music, rather than whining about the sad state of Israeli culture.

    When I wrote about a condescending attitude towards Mizrahi music, I was thinking about comments that I've heard myself, like "it's not serious music" or "the lyrics are simplistic, only about love", whereas Israeli rock or pop is supposedly serious music....As you wrote, like the Greeks, Israelis want HAFLA-who cares if the lyrics aren't always the deepest. If you want deep lyrics, I think you can find Mizrahi artists who write this type of songs as well, like Amir Benayoun (whose music I find boring, but then maybe I'm just shallow!).

    Eva
    Last edited by evaba; 07-05-2011 at 10:43 AM.

  6. #45
    Senior Member bateli777's Avatar
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    I remember Shlomo Bar's (Habrera Hativeet) reply to that statement regarding the inferiority of Mizrachi lyrics...
    He quoted a song by Danni Sanderson
    "a thousand firemen won't be able to put me (my fire) out... NO NO ...
    I reach I don't reach I reach I don't reach
    It's not the worst text in the world...but when listening to the ridiculously shallow simplistic music you can't help but realize that without the help of their friends in high places this would have never reach(ed) an audience.
    I'm embarrassed to put it as a clip
    Sanderson also wrote brilliant master pieces such as "At the uncle and aunt's place" and "The surfboard and I" and "Zippi Primo from Holon"

    This was considered QUALITY ....two chords...limited vocals...poor arrangement...

    If you wish to look it up on YouTube ...here's how to write it in Hebrew....
    I have a reputation to keep here...

    להקת דודה - Doda band (Doda = aunt)
    להקת כוורת Kaveret band (Kaveret= beehive)
    דני סנדרסון Danni Sanderson

    Finally
    Eyal Golan gave an interview and was asked about Galei Zahal (IDF radio which insist on ignoring Mizrachi music)
    He told the interviewer that he tested them and sent them an empty disc.
    They got the box ..Inside there was a CD with NOTHING ON IT
    Guess what ....they didn't call to tell his managers that there is something wrong with the disc....
    They didn't even open the box

    When asked about the change in attitude towards Mizrachi music ..He replied with a smile "They finally understood (acknowledged; realized) "
    Ploutarxos Gia Panta

  7. #46
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    Hi again,

    Since you mentioned Shlomo Bar, here is one of my favourite Shlomo Bar songs:



    I don't think anyone could complain about the quality of the lyrics in this tune! I have a very fine version with Glykeria, but I couldn't find it on youtube.

    Eva

  8. #47
    Senior Member bateli777's Avatar
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    He is one of the more vocal and eloquent spokesman to advocate the case of lyrics' quality of the Mizrachi music.
    I've attended so many of his concerts and always returned home feeling elevated and proud.
    He is a brilliant performer...his drum playing and total devotion to music is a cathartic experience.

    My favorite song of his is Ritsato shel ha'oleh Danino...The run of the immigrant Danino...a social criticism by Natan Alterman one of the more respectful (towards Mizrachi culture) writers .



    In my opinion this is the most important Israeli song EVER .....

    Danino is a Morrocan name.
    The song refers to the trials and tribulations that the Mizrachim suffered by the hands of the Ashkenazim in the early days of Israel.

    (It will take me time to translate it...the text is both poetic and biblical. )

    Yes, such a thing
    Should also not be overlooked
    Should also not be forgotten
    A silent guilty page
    The page of a father's humiliation
    Who jumped, hopped and ran
    And his babies standing still

    The page of a father's humiliation
    Who was commanded by The Return to Zion* – Jump ! * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Return_to_ZionAnd he in his And he in his circle (diaspora)
    Ran, ran, and in his heart a prayer to the mighty God
    That we won't see his sick leg

    And the Lord heard
    And this is what the Lord told him:
    Run, run, Danino my slave (follower)
    I'm with you!
    Because I'll cover your deficiency,
    but I won't cover the insult of my people's revival
    Whose glory is shining of your tear.
    Last edited by bateli777; 07-05-2011 at 01:16 PM.
    Ploutarxos Gia Panta

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  10. #48
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    Thanks for the beautiful song and lyrics! In a somewhat lighter tone (though there is quite a lot of bitterness behind the lyrics, I imagine) Eyal Golan's recording of Jo Amar's "Lishkat avodah" :

    http://www.hebrewsongs.com/song-lishkatavodah.htm



    Eva

  11. #49
    rose4576
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    I LOVE glikeria!!! thanks for posting this song!!

  12. #50
    Senior Member bateli777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rose4576 View Post
    I LOVE glikeria!!! thanks for posting this song!!
    My pleasure
    Ploutarxos Gia Panta

  13. #51
    Senior Member bateli777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PIMOS View Post
    מתי זה שיר יוצא אני רוצה תרגום עבור זה

    רק הגעתי ואת פתאום הולכת
    I just got here and you suddenly leave
    לא ידעתי אם את חוזרת
    I didn't know if you're coming back
    כבר אמרו שאת בי משחקת
    I was already told that you play me
    ושבסוף רק תשברי לי את הלב
    and that eventually you'll only break my heart

    לא הקשבתי רק עלייך
    I wasn't listening. Only of you
    כל היום חשבתי ואחרייך
    I was thinking. And only after you
    רק הלכתי כמו עיוור אלייך
    I was going. Like a blind man (going) to you.
    שלא רואה את עצמו בשבילך
    that doesn't see himself. For you.
    אם את כאן אז זה בטח נכון
    If you're here then it must be true
    תני לי זמן כבר נמאס לי לשאול
    Give me some time I'm tired of asking


    Chorus:

    למה זה למה זה
    Why is .. Why is
    הכל הולך איתך כל -כך קשה רק רוצה
    everything is going so hard with you? I only want
    אותך יאמאמי
    you ya*mummy (*term of endearment)
    למה זה למה זה
    Why is..Why is..
    אני כבר לא יודע
    I no longer know
    מתי תהיי שלי
    when you will be mine

    די תפסיקי כל זה אותי הורס
    Enough. Stop. All that is ruining me
    מתי תביני שבלעדייך
    When will you understand that without you
    אין לי חשק אז בואי אס.או.אס
    I'm not in the mood..so come S.O.S
    אני צריך אותך דחוף לידי
    I need you badly next to me.


    אם את כאן אז זה בטח נכון
    If you're here then it must be true
    תני לי זמן כבר נמאס לי לשאול
    Give me time i'm tired of asking



    Translator comment: I can see now why nobody jumped at the opportunity to translate this "master" piece... ENJOY
    Ploutarxos Gia Panta

  14. #52
    Senior Member bateli777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    Thanks so much for the detailed answer! I do know a bit about the social stigma surrounding the Mizrahi pronunciation. My impression is that in the past there was a general disdain among the Ashkenazi elites towards anything that they considered "oriental" or "levantine". I have even seen excerpts from the writings of the founding Fathers (and Mothers!) like Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir, where you can find some pretty awful remarks about Jews from Arab countries. From personal experience I have gathered that even now there is a somewhat condescending attitude towards Mizrahi/Sephardi culture among some Israelis...for example, when I discussed my musical tastes with some (Ashkenazi) Israelis, they could not understand how I could listen to a "low quality" artist like Ofer Levi, who even sounds like an Arab when he sings! It seems that if you like Ofer, you're automatically regarded as a "frecha"!;-) I guess some artists are more accepted though...the ones who have adopted a more Western style than Ofer Levi's Turkish-Middle Eastern sound.

    I have a Swedish friend who goes to Israel twice a year and who loves Sarit Hadad and oriental music in general. She shares my experiences...she has gotten into quite heated arguments with her Israeli friends and acquaintances about the (perceived) inferiority of this style of music.

    I presume that in view of all this that children from first-generation Mizrahi families preferred to conform to the inofficial standard accent (although the eastern pronunciation is actually more correct, I think). And by the second or third generation I guess the Mizrahi accent has more or less disappeared. The reason I posed the question is that it seems to me that Yemenite Jews have kept the hets and ayins to a greater degree than other Jews from the Middle East, but I may be mistaken. For example, Liron Ramati does pronounce the hets and ayins when he sings, just like Eyal Golan and Shir Levi (who is quite young).

    Eva
    I just remembered that the first paper I submitted in my B.A studies was about Mizrachi artists as sub-culture (super values ,values, norms,sanctions) I remember the comment written next to the grade "You write exactly as you speak". Today I would have written a completely different paper.
    Ploutarxos Gia Panta

  15. #53
    rose4576
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    I listening to Idan Richel - [I love that they sing in spanish and hebrew - 2 of my favorite languages!!!!!!!:-)]
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRir38IFhYY -beautiful song. I just love this song.

    Idan Richel - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBs_VwN0qRI
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vDGG9fDpA8:)

    Yasmin Levi that sings ladino [judaeo spanish] and arabic - "mano suave" [yad anuga]
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rmK99BZsKo

    Yasmin Levi and Eleni Vitaly - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SL52Fr1DvA

  16. #54
    Senior Member bateli777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rose4576 View Post
    I listening to Idan Richel - [I love that they sing in spanish and hebrew - 2 of my favorite languages!!!!!!!:-)]
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRir38IFhYY -beautiful song. I just love this song.

    Idan Richel - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBs_VwN0qRI
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vDGG9fDpA8:)

    Yasmin Levi that sings ladino [judaeo spanish] and arabic - "mano suave" [yad anuga]
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rmK99BZsKo

    Yasmin Levi and Eleni Vitaly - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SL52Fr1DvA
    יסמין לוי ה ע נ ק י ת יחד עם אלני ויטלי ...............רוז , אני הרוסה לגמרי !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! זה הפוסט של הלייף !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Ploutarxos Gia Panta

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  18. #55
    Senior Member Pattmoreira's Avatar
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    Boaz has a new album?! Thank youuu girls :d

  19. #56
    Senior Member Pattmoreira's Avatar
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    oh, and btw, I'm supporting David Lavi... He's great!

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  21. #58
    rose4576
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    Quote Originally Posted by bateli777 View Post
    יסמין לוי ה ע נ ק י ת יחד עם אלני ויטלי ...............רוז , אני הרוסה לגמרי !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! זה הפוסט של הלייף !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Thanks!! I am glad you liked the song. I love Yasmin. she is a wonderful singer
    this duet song is one of my favorite song of yasmin [and also "my voy" ].

  22. #59
    rose4576
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pattmoreira View Post
    I adore David Lavi he is an amazing singer. when I heard him singing this song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcwwt4e2Kzo
    I knew that he is king david!!
    and my second favorite singers are the prince Lidor -
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVNkvOlAs8A
    and here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-XwtamCnZE
    and Noy danan- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJdBVEeeZvg

  23. #60
    Senior Member bateli777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pattmoreira View Post
    oh, and btw, I'm supporting David Lavi... He's great!
    Liron my darling...he's the older , hotter, more mature version of Eyal Golan minus the stupid jewelry
    Ploutarxos Gia Panta

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