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  1. #1
    Rock Mod MoonRide*r*'s Avatar
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    Lightbulb Philosophies of Society, Governance, Domestic & World Affairs (open discussion)

    I hope this topic doesn't need a lengthy explanation... maybe just a couple of general rules, so to speak:

    a. My purpose for creating this new topic is open discussion, including continuation of discussions begun elsewhere, and even some healthy and informative "debate" (e.g., Policy Debate or similar persuasive mechanism) in a considerate, good-hearted, and ideally helpful fashion.

    b. Please keep comments as general as possible; i.e.: Do not unduly criticize or attack someone else's country, ethnicity, religion, personal orientation, or personal views on any subject. Subjects are open for debate or some degree of criticism, but not people.

    c. Please avoid using names of present or recent national leaders or other public figures. This is not a hard and fast rule, but just try not to overdo it.

    ___________

    The following is nothing more than my own personal opening statement, which participants may choose to discuss or not discuss.
    _____________


    Propositions:

    1. Government is people. People govern people. Government cannot exist without "us".

    2. There is no perfect form of government, because of Point 1: Humanity itself is not perfect; therefore government, in any form, can never be perfect. Winston Churchill (paraphrased?): Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.

    3. Regardless of form, government must exist only to serve its people. Government must nurture itself, to a point, in order to thrive and thus provide services for its people. But when government becomes too self-serving, everyone (even foreigners/aliens) will suffer for it.

    4. There is nothing new under the sun. One great purpose of knowing history is to become aware of, analyze, and try to avoid repeating mistakes of of the past.

    5. No (hu)man is an island, and therefore no government is an island. Social interaction is a fact of life, and government must provide for it and even encourage and participate in social interaction, in proper and meaningful ways. Interactions between and among governments are, first and last, interactions between and among people.

    6. We have met the enemy, and he is us; whichever way you want to look at it. Ultimately, again, society is government and government is society. The two cannot be separated or remain separated for long. (Witness eastern and central Europe from the spring of 1989 through the winter of 1991. The first steps in that progression, for better or worse, were made by people in direct challenge(s) to government(s).)

    _____________


    Go for it
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  2. #2
    Ange ou Demon Amethystos's Avatar
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    Thank you Moonrider for the creation of this thread.

    Before answer to any of your propositions I would like to inform us if these are your personal beliefs.

    _________________

    Just for showing my happy feelings about this thread, created by an open-minded member

    Billy Joel "We didn't start the fire"

    "Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to?
    You will never find that life for which you are looking.
    When the gods created man they allotted to him death,
    but life they retained in their own keeping"

  3. #3
    Ange ou Demon Amethystos's Avatar
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    Lightbulb This is my response Ofratko

    Quote Originally Posted by Ofratko
    :0) ok so to answer all your questions.
    Fine I wouldn't call it this way, but ease up the tension.People have to see that this kind of greed won't be tolerated and has to be punished. That people who stayed homeless or jobless will see justice in their life. That next generation don't have to survive this kind of financial terror. We are living in fear and uncertainty. And some !@!##@$@$ is living in luxury laughing his butt off. I read somewhere that one of this wall street guys forgot his transaction receipt in ATM and his balance was 100 000 000!(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...k-balance.html) I mean come on this people are criminals. The only place they should be is behind bars. Economy should be controlled and regulated!
    My dear Ofratko I basically do not disagree with your words.
    The point is, however, that based on your solution the problem WILL continue.
    The people you are talking about they will still smile, even after some years in prison.

    Another thing that has to be mentioned is that you inform us that Irish people belive that this generation is .... lost!
    A whole generation!
    What a coincidence! I started thinking the same thing 3 years before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ofratko
    And yes I'm 100% sure that bankers own politicians! They have them deep in their pockets!
    I disagree...
    I belive that "Banks under capitalism consist some kind of ... medium".
    The real question is ... "Who are the people that have gained from this situation?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ofratko
    It is impossible to compare Africa and Europe rich or western rich. I don't know whether you know expression born with a silver spoon in your mouth. People who are born into privilege and wealth and didn't have to move their finger And then there are people who are able to spend 10 000 euro on one dinner. The wealth of the world is owned by only little percentage of population( some are saying that 1 % of population owns 90% of world's wealth) The truth is that in our countries we still have middle class. it is dying out but we still have it. in Asia & Africa the middle class in almost non existent( with obvious exceptions) So you have really rich people and really poor. Or my favorite expression below poverty line. I just don't want to wake up one morning and realize that Ireland or any other european country is turning to be that way!
    I've already asnwered you that I was aware of the phrase.

    Thanks for another info about Irish middle clash.
    All I'm saying is that, this is a premium chance not only to preserve our way of living but also to concetrate to people that facing EVEN BIGGER problems than ours.

    In other words, if by some kind of miracle, tomorrow started raining in Dublin loads of "500 euro" banknotes for a week, and people could maintain their way of living, would have been all perfect?
    Cause then, 10 millions of Syrian refugees will listen the news and start "arriving" in waves.
    I don't think that Irish economy could stand such a thing!
    "Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to?
    You will never find that life for which you are looking.
    When the gods created man they allotted to him death,
    but life they retained in their own keeping"

  4. #4
    Rock Mod MoonRide*r*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amethystos View Post
    Thank you Moonrider for the creation of this thread.

    Before answer to any of your propositions I would like to inform us if these are your personal beliefs.
    You're most welcome Amethystos, and thank you for your comments, and also for that very appropriate video because I forgot to mention that I want to allow for and even encourage "diversions" here and there, as an ongoing effort to keep this discussion informal, as tension-free as possible, and most of all, enjoyable.

    Yep, all of my Propositions are my own personal beliefs, written entirely in my own words except for the italicized "quotes", which I assume are recognizable to almost anyone. My propositions represent a fairly complete summary of my philosophical opinions about the basic purpose for allowing "government" to exist at all. And yes I do believe we "allow" our specific governments to exist, either by preference, by sympathetic or neutral inaction, by apathy, or by fear.

    I might only add (for now) that the following comprise all reasons why I think government, or a centrality of governance in some form, should or must exist:

    1. To provide, enable or encourage care for the elderly, orphans, and the poor and others who are not able to care for themselves.

    2. To provide social order (e.g., law and order, for the protection of all).

    3. To provide, enable or encourage education for its entire citizenry, and even for guests (non-citizens).

    4. National defense.... remembering that we live in a very imperfect world filled with very imperfect humanity.

    Please note, I did not write offense. I propose that the only requirement for (e.g.) a militia is to protect a nation or community of people from external invasion (or from internal disruption). However, I do have a lot more to say about this.

    _____

    One thing not included in my personal list of necessities of government is trade; economics; commerce. We as individuals, families, communities and grass-roots cooperatives are entirely capable of building and conducting business for ourselves, among ourselves, and as an interchange with other societies and nations. But I concede that it's necessary for government to ensure that businesses are conducted in accordance with all laws of the land, for the good of the people and for the government itself.

    I also believe strongly, that any nation or citizenry which is "blessed" by good circumstances may be obliged to reach out to others who are not so fortunate; e.g., foreign aid. It's just the compassionate and human thing to do.

    _____


    IMHO, in my humble opinion
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    Rock Mod MoonRide*r*'s Avatar
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    N.B. regarding point 4 in my last post: It's my understanding that Thomas Jefferson did not want us to create a permanent federal militia (military) after the end of our Revolutionary War. That proposition scared him to death, and I think that's a very interesting point for discussion some time in the future.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member amaryn's Avatar
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    @ Amethystos: I tend more to agree with Ofratko when it comes to punishing the bank system for greed; the system has run out of control. To add that a few years in prison won't change those guys sounds to me like "put a thief for 4 years in prison and when he/she
    comes out, he/she remains a thief."
    It sounds to me like "let corruption roll on, whatever we do it won't help." (tell me I'm wrong,pleeze)
    But it asks for an economical revolution and is helplessly difficult to prognose at the time.

    @ Moon I'm glad you admit some kind of government is needed to help out those who can't care for themselves; as well as education is important for everybody: studybooks are dreadfully expensive, without financial help not everybody can afford them. And even for guests! How right you are!
    I have understood that you are calling yourself conservative. I seem to understand you do have a BIG HEART though and I am less worried now Have a to make you shine in the dark,lol

    @Ofratko: no generation is totally lost, but when looking back at our parents/grandparents, who have gone through two wars , some even more than that,it seems
    they were more unfortunate than we even can imagine, inspite of the economic depressions we encounter in our days
    Last edited by amaryn; 09-27-2012 at 01:37 PM.

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    Senior Member Teshka's Avatar
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    amaryn you wrote that as if one measure of being conservative or liberal is how much heart that one has compared to the other but that only comes from the way that politics get presented and even distorted as a ritualistic habit and even a mantra by the majority of our news media....and probably other media as well.....my personal view is that my Dad is also conservative in his political leanings (or by so-called party lines) yet he risked his whole career and even his life 25 years ago to get me out of the hands of a government system that was just a shell of communist "compassion" and that would have robbed me of every reasonable chance at life. i just have to say once again altho in a different way this time, political views in our contemporary world should not be seen as a flag of a person's sense of caring and basic human compassion.......bcs often its just the question of whether a government's particular efforts toward compassion will work or not......in other words how can government balance itself in all important ways so that it can do so many things well, and for 315 million people in my case, rather than just pretending, or trying and then failing and in that process wasting valuable resources and even people's lives or security when it fails...

    My age group in the USA, we're called Millenialists, one of our supposed defining criteria can be expressed in one sentence....yes we have to take care of everyone but how can we effectively fund and sustain all of those programs? that's a real question that needs a real answer no matter what system we may want to talk about.....if we make promises that we cant keep to thousands and even 10s of millions of people.......what then? That question must be part of every question that follows.
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    Senior Member Teshka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amethystos View Post
    I belive that "Banks under capitalism consist some kind of ... medium".
    The real question is ... "Who are the people that have gained from this situation?"
    I agree Amethystos, I think that banks perform a necessary function but they must be policed, and then anyone that violates our trust must be clearly identified and separated from his or her duties, banned from holding any other position of public service and dealt with in a clear and firm manner according to the severity of his or her crimes.
    Music is what feelings sound like
    Listen to the Love
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    Senior Member Teshka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amaryn View Post
    no generation is totally lost, but when looking back at our parents/grandparents, who have gone through two wars , some even more than that,it seems
    they were more unfortunate than we even can imagine
    Yea i agree and i believe that we owe our parents and grandparents a lot for the legacies that they have delivered to us...despite the massive problems that we can see all around, I can only believe that things could be a lot worse than they are....i know that this can draw a lot of criticism but i think that the problems we have now are new problems that need new solutions....and most especially some new people to deal with them
    Music is what feelings sound like
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  10. #10
    Senior Member amaryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teshka View Post
    amaryn you wrote that as if one measure of being conservative or liberal is how much heart that one has compared to the other but that only comes from the way that politics get presented and even distorted as a ritualistic habit and even a mantra by the majority of our news media....and probably other media as well.....my personal view is that my Dad is also conservative in his political leanings (or by so-called party lines) yet he risked his whole career and even his life 25 years ago to get me out of the hands of a government system that was just a shell of communist "compassion" and that would have robbed me of every reasonable chance at life. i just have to say once again altho in a different way this time, political views in our contemporary world should not be seen as a flag of a person's sense of caring and basic human compassion.......bcs often its just the question of whether a government's particular efforts toward compassion will work or not......in other words how can government balance itself in all important ways so that it can do so many things well, and for 315 million people in my case, rather than just pretending, or trying and then failing and in that process wasting valuable resources and even people's lives or security when it fails...

    My age group in the USA, we're called Millenialists, one of our supposed defining criteria can be expressed in one sentence....yes we have to take care of everyone but how can we effectively fund and sustain all of those programs? that's a real question that needs a real answer no matter what system we may want to talk about.....if we make promises that we cant keep to thousands and even 10s of millions of people.......what then? That question must be part of every question that follows.
    Hi, Tess! I am maybe making it sound as if I put all conservatives and liberals under the label "baddies", but don't worry: I don't
    And I totally agree that caring for everybody who can't cope - which I see to certain extent as absolutely necessary - is a huge challenge indeed, which
    evokes many other questions and steps.
    But still: we must try! As a member of Unicef organisation and Amnesty we face the same problems: though it is impossible to help everybody we do
    our best to help as many as possible. The worst decision is turning your back. As the French say so well: APRES MOI LE DELUGE: "let the flood come AFTER me" . I won't point my finger at jobless, homeless, addicts, just as "look at them, they can't cope with life".
    But still, you're right, it's a helluva job and needs tons of optimism, ideas, energy and initiatives (and money, which IMHO is abundant but hidden
    in pockets of oligarchs, banks, taxfree paradises....
    Seeking a balance , as you call that very correctly, might maybe start from investigating whereto the trillions of money
    flow about which neither Wall Street nor London City like to talk???

  11. #11
    Rock Mod MoonRide*r*'s Avatar
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    I need to try very hard to make my posts shorter, more discrete and on one point.

    Amethystos, I definitely want to respond to your original question about universal commerce, but first I have to ask: Do you mean global commerce? That's a term that I'm familiar with, and I hope that's what your question refers to.

    I don't want to get ahead of your answer, but I'll go ahead and say this much: I think commerce on the global scale is now a given; it's already upon us, in some very big ways, and it's here to stay. And I think it's great, as a whole. However, I have 2 major concerns; (1) the preservation of every nation's sovereignty, and (2) the preservation of culture, which of course includes a people's religious and philosophical beliefs.

    Global commerce should also strive actively be as inclusive as possible, throughout the world. For example, Africa: Most of Africa is still so undeveloped that many countries can't extend themselves into the world marketplace. Therefore I think world markets should extend themselves... as harmlessly and unobtrusively as possible... into undeveloped or underdeveloped areas of the world, so that everyone can have, or develop, equal opportunities to participate on the world stage, and also benefit from advances in science, business, technology and so on.

    That's just another philosophical statement of my own personal views.
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    Ange ou Demon Amethystos's Avatar
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    Wink Thanks for joining our conversation amaryn....

    Before answering to you, I wanna say that you actually proved that you are an artist...
    You're full of passion and enthusiam. And when you're talking about injustice you're always ready to revolt.
    That's the amaryn we know!

    Quote Originally Posted by amaryn View Post
    @ Amethystos: I tend more to agree with Ofratko when it comes to punishing the bank system for greed; To add that a few years in prison won't change those guys sounds to me like "put a thief for 4 years in prison and when he/she comes out, he/she remains a thief."
    It sounds to me like "let corruption roll on, whatever we do it won't help." (tell me I'm wrong,pleeze)
    Yes you are!!!! Cause you let yourself carried away by your emotion.
    Let me remind you what I answered to Ofratko
    Quote Originally Posted by Amethystos
    My dear Ofratko I basically do not disagree with your words.
    So I never said that is wrong for ANYONE that commited a crime to go to jail.
    The only thing I said is that, this is NOT a SUFFICIENT measure.
    But let's continue...

    Quote Originally Posted by amaryn View Post
    .... the system has run out of control.
    NOT AT ALL! I belive that the "system" has done exactly what it should.
    Or more accurate "What it had been planned to do under some circumstances".

    So I can repeat the important question "Who are the people that have gained from this situation?"
    And I mean GLOBALLY! There's no point to discuss about millions ..... we are talking about a MUCH greater scale!
    These people are gaining fortunes while "playing" with the external depts of ALL COUNTRIES! (China included....)

    Quote Originally Posted by amaryn View Post
    But it asks for an economical revolution and is helplessly difficult to prognose at the time.
    Economical revolution?
    Please define ....
    _______________________

    Quote Originally Posted by amaryn View Post
    ...studybooks are dreadfully expensive, without financial help not everybody can afford them. And even for guests! How right you are!
    Really???
    "Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to?
    You will never find that life for which you are looking.
    When the gods created man they allotted to him death,
    but life they retained in their own keeping"

  13. #13
    Ange ou Demon Amethystos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amaryn View Post
    But still, you're right, it's a helluva job and needs tons of optimism, ideas, energy and initiatives (and money, which IMHO is abundant but hidden in pockets of oligarchs, banks, taxfree paradises....
    Seeking a balance , as you call that very correctly, might maybe start from investigating whereto the trillions of money
    flow about which neither Wall Street nor London City like to talk???
    WOW!
    TOTTALY AGREE!

    So after all that ... what can you say us about the politicians' part of the "job"?
    "Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to?
    You will never find that life for which you are looking.
    When the gods created man they allotted to him death,
    but life they retained in their own keeping"

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    Ange ou Demon Amethystos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teshka View Post
    I agree Amethystos, I think that banks perform a necessary function but they must be policed, and then anyone that violates our trust must be clearly identified and separated from his or her duties, banned from holding any other position of public service and dealt with in a clear and firm manner according to the severity of his or her crimes.
    Don't hurry Teshka!
    When i wrote "Banks under capitalism consist some kind of ... medium" never meant that "banks perform a necessary function" ... at least to the society!


    Quote Originally Posted by Teshka View Post
    ....yes we have to take care of everyone but how can we effectively fund and sustain all of those programs? that's a real question that needs a real answer no matter what system we may want to talk about.....if we make promises that we cant keep to thousands and even 10s of millions of people.......what then? That question must be part of every question that follows.
    But you can! US tax payers pay not only for their goverment's programs but also for paying back US external debt plus interest!
    "Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to?
    You will never find that life for which you are looking.
    When the gods created man they allotted to him death,
    but life they retained in their own keeping"

  15. #15
    Rock Mod MoonRide*r*'s Avatar
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    ^-^ Tess just texted me "screaming" that she was trying to write a post here, on her cell, but her phone went bonkers and she lost everything she typed. Soooo she asked me to mention this for her but it's also just as much for myself:

    amaryn: YES the oligarchs, and along with them the monopolies that are taking over this country everywhere we turn. That's why we've lost things like neighborhood banks that actually knew how to work with individual customers, rather than cattle-herding everyone into a corporate bureaucracy that is far far removed from the individual customers needs.

    But also, yeah, hidden money: Just for starters, those derivatives that (I believe) Tess mentioned before... the brokers who sold those loans and false hopes to God-knows-who (many of whom are still keeping it secret).... the brokers' sales commissions in almost every case were in the millions of dollars, although we'll never know how many millions that each deal brought to the brokers and their bosses, because all of those people were sworn by contract to secrecy. It was only a few who dared to be interviewed on Discovery, or National Geographic, and who further dared to just hint at the ungodly amounts of money they made, individually as well as at corporate levels. If I were running the US Justice Department, that would be one of the first things I would have investigated, 3-4 years ago, but especially now that they have "probable cause" to investigate, via that one TV show that I saw.

    But that's just the tip of the iceberg... we could crowd a whole 'nother topic with just the one subject. And of course the further problem is that when US banks were deregulated decades ago, banks could play in the stock markets and all kinds of shady investments, with all they had, and then some. And that's another big thing that still needs to be fixed in this country, and I'm sure in other countries too. Banks should not be allowed to play games with consumers' money or with governments' money.

    On my side of economics theory (the capitalist side), I believe it's called regulated capitalism. No problem. Go for it. Law and order can and should be applied whenever and wherever necessary.
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    Rock Mod MoonRide*r*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amethystos View Post
    So after all that ... what can you say us about the politicians' part of the "job"?
    I'd love to answer that question too, if I may

    Politicians just need to get real (get serious) about their job and their responsibilities. That's it, pure and simple. Reregulate the banking industries, just as it was done before (in our case), and also investigate and prosecute as needed.

    There are some politicians in the US who do try to tackle problems with banking and Securities, and so on. But unfortunately, those people are usually not the "movers and shakers" who actually get bills heard, voted on, and passed. That's where political power interferes: Our Senate and House Majority Leaders have too much power (direct or indirect) as to what bills will or will not be brought to the floor for vote. They can block legislation that they don't like. BIG problem. Because the Majority Leaders are usually those who have tons of seniority and who know best how to "work the system" for the benefit of their respective political parties.
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    Ange ou Demon Amethystos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonRide*r* View Post
    I need to try very hard to make my posts shorter, more discrete and on one point.
    Yeap! Let's try to do this little favour to Ofratko. She's right!

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonRide*r* View Post
    Amethystos... Do you mean global commerce? That's a term that I'm familiar with, and I hope that's what your question refers to.
    You have to excuse me about "terminology". English is not my native language. Yes that's what I meant but I asked for your opinion about "the major kinds" of global commerce.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonRide*r* View Post
    I think commerce on the global scale is now a given; it's already upon us, in some very big ways, and it's here to stay. And I think it's great, as a whole. However, I have 2 major concerns; (1) the preservation of every nation's sovereignty, and (2) the preservation of culture, which of course includes a people's religious and philosophical beliefs.
    Agree Moorider, this is a part of the whole problem, and just for succeeding to solve it, we must set some new standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonride*r*
    Therefore I think world markets should extend themselves... as harmlessly and unobtrusively as possible... into undeveloped or underdeveloped areas of the world, so that everyone can have, or develop, equal opportunities to participate on the world stage, and also benefit from advances in science, business, technology and so on.
    Moonrider I'm sorry to disagree with you.
    "World markets" have already expanded too far in Africa... Markets are still stealing African people.
    The less expansion the better! We shouldn't try to support them by establishing some western corporations;
    but to support them by medical care and by funding their education and their infrastructure.

    Does this sound "Too much" in your ears?
    "Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to?
    You will never find that life for which you are looking.
    When the gods created man they allotted to him death,
    but life they retained in their own keeping"

  18. #18
    Rock Mod MoonRide*r*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amethystos View Post
    But you can! US tax payers pay not only for their goverment's programs but also for paying back US external debt plus interest!
    Agreed! But the problem in "paying back" is that we just keep borrowing more and more and more, so the solution is getting farther away instead of closer

    Again it goes back to fixing some things that are broken first; for example, determining how to reduce as much of that $750 billion annual waste as possible; and so forth and so on. There is a lot that can be done to reduce and streamline our debt, if only someone within government would actually make that a priority.
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    Rock Mod MoonRide*r*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amethystos View Post
    Moonrider I'm sorry to disagree with you.
    "World markets" have already expanded too far in Africa... Markets are still stealing African people.
    The less expansion the better! We shouldn't try to support them by establishing some western corporations;
    but to support them by medical care and by funding their education and their infrastructure.

    Does this sound "Too much" in your ears?
    Nope, not too much for my ears at all coz I sympathize greatly with what you're saying. I'll just consider it to be another dilemma; aid, and even education and opportunities can be extended to the less fortunate, but any and all of that can easily be overdone.

    Edit: But I might also add, that I always prefer (when or if possible) to teach and help build from within, so that the necessity for aid won't have to be so permanent... Not to drag people away from their homes, and especially not to destroy the cross-section of their societies and so on, but more on the lines of an old "proverb": Give a man a fish and feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Sorry if that sounds trite or cliche-ish, but that's my honest personal opinion.
    Last edited by MoonRide*r*; 09-27-2012 at 04:39 PM. Reason: changed "wealth" to "aid"... bad choice of words, wrong idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amethystos View Post
    You have to excuse me about "terminology". English is not my native language. Yes that's what I meant but I asked for your opinion about "the major kinds" of global commerce.
    No problem Amethystos, and for me, it's unfortunate that your alphabet intimidates me so much that there's no chance that I'll ever learn more than a few words of Greek

    Major kinds of commerce... that's still quite a large concept for me to address, again because we deal with so many realities and possibilities in this country that I could probably touch on just about everything.... so....

    May I ask you, just this once, to share some of your thoughts on commerce first, so I can use that as an anchor and starting point for my own views? Toss me some ideas and then I'll bounce 'em back at ya
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