Can anybody help?

Can anybody help?

What means:

هل وسعت الدلالة إلى آخر الدلالة؟
نجحت في استدراج المعنى؟

Is there some linguistic meaning or somethin'?

Thanks in advance

Originally Posted by Jihan

Can anybody help?

What means:

هل وسعت الدلالة إلى آخر الدلالة؟
نجحت في استدراج المعنى؟

Is there some linguistic meaning or somethin'?

Thanks in advance

It means :

Did you get the meaning till its end?

Could you get the meaning?

Originally Posted by LoOlya

It means :

Did you get the meaning till its end?

Could you get the meaning?

So dalal and ma3na are the same?

Maybe I should give the lines before as well:

:أخاف أن تقرئين القصيدة لغويا
هل الكلمات متنافر؟
هل وسعت الدلالة الى آخر الدلالة؟
نجحت في استدراج المعنى؟
وضعت القصيدة في تاريج الشعر؟
هل كانت رائدة؟

I think الدلالة - linguistically is semantics, the study of meaning of words. We could debate the difference between meaning and semantics - but it would all be semantics then wouldnt it? Pun intended

Jihan, including here:
http://www.almaany.com/home.php?lang...A7%D9%84%D8%A9

الدَّلالةُ = الإرشادُ

maybe it will help you

But who's the person that acts in وسعت and نجحت and وضعت. I mean, is it the "Qasida", or is it "I" or is it "you"...I don't get the "meaning" =)

Originally Posted by Jihan

But who's the person that acts in وسعت and نجحت and وضعت. I mean, is it the "Qasida", or is it "I" or is it "you"...I don't get the "meaning" =)

i think its refer to Qasida's reader from first line... maybe, not so sure about it

Originally Posted by aila

i think its refer to Qasida's reader from first line... maybe, not so sure about it

That's true aila
it refers to you (the reader of the poem\audience) - but here for female .. because in the first it's written " taqra2een" تقرأين

(antii) wasa3-tii أنتِ وسعتِ
(antii) naja7-tiii أنتِ نجحتِ
(antii) wada3-tii أنتِ وضعتِ

And there's absolutely no insecurity about it? I mean, from the context only "you" makes sense for the rest of the verse?

What about these two verses:


وضعت القصيدة في تاريج الشعر؟
هل كانت رائدة؟

Is it than also: did you give the qasida a place in the history of poetry? Or could it be as well something like: did the qasida deserve a place in the history of poetry.

And the last verse: here in kanat it is the qasida itself, obviously, isn't it?

Thanks for the help, by the way

Originally Posted by Jihan

And there's absolutely no insecurity about it? I mean, from the context only "you" makes sense for the rest of the verse?

What about these two verses:


وضعت القصيدة في تاريج الشعر؟
هل كانت رائدة؟

Is it than also: did you give the qasida a place in the history of poetry? Or could it be as well something like: did the qasida deserve a place in the history of poetry.

And the last verse: here in kanat it is the qasida itself, obviously, isn't it?

Thanks for the help, by the way

وضعت القصيدة في تاريج الشعر؟
did you bute the qasida in place in the history of poetry
it mean : did u give the gasida the place that it deserve in the history of poetry
And the last verse: here in kanat it is the qasida itself

doing my best to be helpful

mh, for me, it doesnt make sense with "you" as the one who does all these things.

I mean,
هل الكلمات متنافر؟
هل وسعت الدلالة الى آخر الدلالة؟
here wasa3t cant refer to kalimat? I dont seem to get the meaning of wasa3 anyway, doesnt it mean extend?

نجحت في استدراج المعنى؟
and here nage7t cant be kalimat or dalalah as well?

I thought the questions are the questions that the reader asks himself while reading the poem (do the words sound good, is the meaning clear or obscure, is the poem pathbreaking?)

Can anybody explain, how it makes sense that the poet should ask the reader if he understood the poem? There is also a colon in the first verse...

I fear you read the poem linguistically:
do the words sound good?

But then, is there a difference between dalalah and ma3na?

Originally Posted by Jihan

mh, for me, it doesnt make sense with "you" as the one who does all these things.

I mean,
هل الكلمات متنافر؟
هل وسعت الدلالة الى آخر الدلالة؟
here wasa3t cant refer to kalimat? I dont seem to get the meaning of wasa3 anyway, doesnt it mean extend?

نجحت في استدراج المعنى؟
and here nage7t cant be kalimat or dalalah as well?

I thought the questions are the questions that the reader asks himself while reading the poem (do the words sound good, is the meaning clear or obscure, is the poem pathbreaking?)

Can anybody explain, how it makes sense that the poet should ask the reader if he understood the poem? There is also a colon in the first verse...

I fear you read the poem linguistically:
do the words sound good?

But then, is there a difference between dalalah and ma3na?

my dear
Arabic wider than English
And i m not good in english :P so
الدلالة (dalala) doesnt mean المعني (ma3na) at all
الدلالة = Semantic
المعني =Sense of the word
u Should also take Thet linguistic style for consideration
هل الكلمات متنافر؟ = Are the words incompatible ( r the words not making sense)
هل وسعت الدلالة الى آخر الدلالة؟= i believe that u cant get i good tradution for this one but it mean r the semantic clear enough to make the sense seen
نجحت في استدراج المعنى؟= Succeeded in luring meaning? ( succceded in delivering the meaning and make u get it

my be if u show us the poem we can be more helpful

Originally Posted by LoOlya

That's true aila
it refers to you (the reader of the poem\audience) - but here for female .. because in the first it's written " taqra2een" تقرأين

(antii) wasa3-tii أنتِ وسعتِ
(antii) naja7-tiii أنتِ نجحتِ
(antii) wada3-tii أنتِ وضعتِ

as LoOlya said "een" of taqra2een = تقرئين show u that U R talking to her (she)
in arabic u dont generaly found personal pronouns so the words can tall u how is talking to how
it dosent look easy but it is

Originally Posted by Jihan

So dalal and ma3na are the same?

Maybe I should give the lines before as well:

:أخاف أن تقرئين القصيدة لغويا
هل الكلمات متنافر؟
هل وسعت الدلالة الى آخر الدلالة؟
نجحت في استدراج المعنى؟
وضعت القصيدة في تاريج الشعر؟
هل كانت رائدة؟

i'm a native Arabic speaker and i'll tell u what i understand exactly, i'll first translate it then i'll answer ur questions according to what i understand, i'm not 100% sure about what i'll translate or explain, i'll just tell u what i understand as a native speaker, so i'm not responsible for ANYTHING if i understand it incorrectly lol, cause poems and related stuff r difficult even to native Arabic speakers cause they r in Standard Arabic and they have their own vocabulary and story, we used to study them at school with every poem having its list of vocabulary that we should study to be able to understand the poems, if we don't study them we don't understand most of the poem and yes i know it's in Arabic

here's the translation:

":أخاف أن تقرئين القصيدة لغويا"
"i'm afraid u read the poem linguistically:"
(literally "i'm afraid that u read the poem linguistically")

"هل الكلمات متنافر؟"
"r the words not fitting each other?"
(literally "r the words conflicting?")

(in the previous line, "متنافر" should be "متنافرة" cause the word "الكلمات" is feminine so the adjective should be feminine too, so it should be "متنافرة")

"هل وسعت الدلالة الى آخر الدلالة؟"
"did the meaning/connotation reach/get to the fullest?"
(literally "did the meaning/connotation extend to the end of the meaning/connotation?")

"نجحت في استدراج المعنى؟"
"was it successful in getting/fetching the meaning?"
(literally "succeeded in getting/fetching the meaning?")

"وضعت القصيدة في تاريج الشعر؟"
"was the poem included in the history of poetry?"
(literally "was the poem put in the history of poetry?"

(in the previous line, it's "تاريج" not "تاريخ" so i assumed this is a typo as u all did, also the question is missing the word "هل" which starts a question in Standard Arabic so it's a little weird)

"هل كانت رائدة؟"
"was it pioneering?"
(literally "was it pioneering?")

now answering ur questions (according to what i understand)

i think the colon clarifies the 1st sentence "أخاف أن تقرئين القصيدة لغويا", the speaker tells someone that he/she (the speaker) is afraid that she (the person spoken to) reads the poem linguistically, and from this i understand that the poem has an implied meaning or message that won't be clear if someone reads it linguistically, so he/she wants the person spoken to to read the poem in a way that shows its real meaning or message, then he/she clarifies this more by asking the questions after the colon

the person who acts in every verb (technically called "the subject" of the sentence):
أخاف > the speaker
تقرئين > the person spoken to
وسعت > the word "الدلالة"
نجحت > the word "الدلالة"
وضعت > it's in the passive "wode3at" (not "wada3at"), so the subject is not mentioned but the object (the thing that receives the action) is the word "القصيدة"
كانت > the word "القصيدة"

"wase3at" means "extended/stretched/widened"

the difference between "dalala" and "ma3na" is that "ma3na" can be direct or indirect, "dalala" is usually broader than just the "meaning" and it usually refers to something as if it's indirect, so "dalala" is like a "connotation", for example "his words have a good dalala", this means his words "refer to" something good, but "ma3na" is usually more conclusive and direct, this is what i know

one last thing to say, i don't think this is a poem, it seems to be questions ABOUT a poem, i don't find it a poem and there r no rhyming lines, i know not all poems have rhyming lines but these sentences don't sound like a poem to me cause they ask about a poem, so they r questions the speaker r asking to the person who reads the poem to know if he/she gets the meaning of the poem correctly or not, but i'm not sure