Another pair of "song cousins": Guantanamera and Στα χέρια σου μεγάλωσαν

1.
Guantanamera
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0gg3-xvMB0

Translation from the last verse:

“With the poor people of the earth
I want to cast my lot
The brook of the mountains
Gives me more pleasure than the sea”

(Note:
Even though the Seeger version of Guantanamera is by no means the best, I have chosen to post this version because Seeger was a United States artist who suffered from right-wing repression the way many left-wing Greek artists did, including Bithikotsis. Seeger was never exiled, but he did almost spend a year in jail, and could have spent ten.)

2.
Στα χέρια σου μεγάλωσαν
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPkfdMKRv-k

Translation from the first verse:

"Poor people, every song of mine is for you.
For your sorrows that stroll in the neighborhood.
Poor people, that from shaping the clay, you form a flower.
And you knit your sorrows using a difficult technique."

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

"Poor people, every song of mine is for you.
For your sorrows that stroll in the neighborhood.
Poor people, that from shaping the clay, you form a flower.
And you knit your sorrows using a difficult technique."

A Great song.

It sounds more poetical in Greek btw.
We were fortunate to sing by heart such great lyrics.

As for the left-wing vs right-wing decades, Greece was unfortunate to have many romantic people during the cold war.
People who believed in God, enjoyed the sun, and thus easy to have some vision implanted ... leftish or rightish.

Thanks as always for taking the time to respond, A.

You wrote:

"As for the left-wing vs right-wing decades, Greece was unfortunate to have many romantic people during the cold war."

And I am sure that there are Spanish who feel exactly the same way about those who fought for and against Franco (or supported those who did.)

But even if your attitude toward "misguided political romanticism" is correct, it is still interesting to compare the national musical expressions of the Spanish and Greek political experiences.

Consider, for example, the following pair of "song-cousins" and the videos that have been made around them. Politics aside, these are BOTH great songs (and videos) that came into being out of similar national experiences. (Well, that's my opinion anyway.)

And even if you don't personally agree that either of these songs is "great", I'm pretty sure that you'll agree that no one will EVER write even one song (good or bad) about Angela Merkel and the IMF, even if they wind up solving the financial problems of Spain and Greece.

I've provided English translations for both songs, as well as links to the translations.

1. Greek

Ήρωες

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6x9udcfDiQ
http://www.stixoi.info/stixoi.php?in...&song_id=30332

Ήρωες, άπαρτα βουνά.
Ήρωες, με δώδεκα ζωές,
κάστρα του Ολύμπου
και του Παρνασσού φαντάσματα,
ήρωες μες στα χαλάσματα.

Αίματα, κόκκινο νερό,
αίματα, ποτάμι βουερό,
πυρ στην Αλαμάνα
και φωτιά στο Γοργοπόταμο
και φωτιά στο Γοργοπόταμο.

Εμπρός αδέρφια εμπρός
κι είναι μαζί μας ο λαός
στα πιο μεγάλα μας τα κατορθώματα
μες στις πέτρες και στα χώματα.

Θάνατος, μαύρος αδερφός.
Θάνατος, θα γίνω αθάνατος,
πυρ στην Αλαμάνα
και φωτιά στο Γοργοπόταμο
και φωτιά στο Γοργοπόταμο.

Αέρας στις κορφές
μαύρο φεγγάρι στις καρδιές
έλα και πάρε μόνος σου τη λευτεριά
με τραγούδια, όπλα και σπαθιά.

Heroes, impregnable mountains.
Heroes, with twelve lives,
castles of Olympus
and Parnassus ghosts,
heroes amid the rubble.

Blood red water,
bloods, river buzzing,
fire in Alamana
and fire Gorgopotamos
and fire Gorgopotamos.

Forward brothers front
and be with our people
our biggest accomplishments
amid the rocks and soils.

Death, black brother.
Death will become immortal,
fire in Alamana
and fire Gorgopotamos
and fire Gorgopotamos.

Air the peaks
black moon hearts
Come and get yourself the freedom
with songs, guns and swords.

2. Spanish

Si me quieres escribir

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLxa33HR3gY
http://crydee.sai.msu.su/public/lyri...ieres_escribir


Si me quieres escribir, ya sabes mi paradero,
Si me quieres escribir, ya sabes mi paradero,
En el frente de Gandesa primera linea de fuego.
En el frente de Gandesa primera linea de fuego.

Si tu quieres comer bien, barato y de buena forma. (2x)
En el frente de Gandesa, alli tienen una fonda. (2x)

En la entrada de la fonda, Hay un moro Mojama (2x)
Que te dice, "Pasa, pasa que quieres pata comer." (2x)

El primer plato que dan, son grenadas rompedoras (2x)
El segundo de matralla para recordar memorias (2x)

(or, for Anglos)

lf you want to write me a letter, you already know my whereabouts.
I'm on the Gandesa Front, in the first line of the fighting.

If you want to eat your fill, good food and not too many pesos,
On that bloody battlefield stands an inn where you are welcome.

At the entrance of this inn there waits a moor by name Mohammed,
Who warmly greets you, "Hurry, hurry, rare and spicy food awaits you."

The first dish which they serve is hot grenades in quick succession,
Followed by a burst of shrapnel, makes a meal you'll all remember."

One other thing, A.

I was 22 in 1970 and managed to avoid being drafted to fight in Vietnam.

But I can tell you that if the US govt had decided in 1970 to send troops to fight the colonels in Greece instead of the generals in North Vietnam, I would have volunteered immediately.

Is that because I was an overly romantic youth and "Z" was just too damn good a movie? Probably.

But maybe it's also because one of my personal heroes has always been this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hale_Merriman

Whether he was misguided or not, he put everything on the line when he didn't have to.

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

Thanks as always for taking the time to respond, A.

There's no point in thanking one another, we're all enjoying what we're doing here.

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

You wrote:

"As for the left-wing vs right-wing decades, Greece was unfortunate to have many romantic people during the cold war."

And I am sure that there are Spanish who feel exactly the same way about those who fought for and against Franco (or supported those who did.)

But even if your attitude toward "misguided political romanticism" is correct, it is still interesting to compare the national musical expressions of the Spanish and Greek political experiences.

Consider, for example, the following pair of "song-cousins" and the videos that have been made around them. Politics aside, these are BOTH great songs (and videos) that came into being out of similar national experiences. (Well, that's my opinion anyway.)

"misguided political romanticism"
An interesting way to speak about these things
Synopsis: Greeks were simply ... unlucky.

I can't talk about the Spanish song, but about the Greek one ...
let's say that I strongly believe it was published right after the fall of junta for commercial reasons.

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

And even if you don't personally agree that either of these songs is "great", I'm pretty sure that you'll agree that no one will EVER write even one song (good or bad) about Angela Merkel and the IMF, even if they wind up solving the financial problems of Spain and Greece.

I believe every leader is responsible for his country, so Ms Merkel will be congratulated by German people if she succeeds in strengthening Germany.
IMF is an organization which has to create profits afaik.

So of course there will be no Greek nor Spanish song about them.

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

One other thing, A.

I was 22 in 1970 and managed to avoid being drafted to fight in Vietnam.

But I can tell you that if the US govt had decided in 1970 to send troops to fight the colonels in Greece instead of the generals in North Vietnam, I would have volunteered immediately.

Is that because I was an overly romantic youth and "Z" was just too damn good a movie? Probably.

But maybe it's also because one of my personal heroes has always been this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hale_Merriman

Whether he was misguided or not, he put everything on the line when he didn't have to.

Congrats! I fully support people who are fighting for their beliefs, even though I suppose US government would have never interfere to the internal politics of a NATO ally, would they?
Also thanks for making me read about Robert Hale Merriman, I knew about the "International Brigades" but never thought of searching for separate cases.

Z was a great movie for it's time. "Too spirited" I would say.

You wrote:

"Congrats! I fully support people who are fighting for their beliefs, even though I suppose US government would have never interfere to the internal politics of a NATO ally, would they?"

And I think you are probably making a good joke here, because it is of course true that when US President Truman sent US aid, equipment, and even personnel to Greece in 1947-1948. Greece was not yet a NATO member.

Greece did not become a member of NATO till 1952.

So, we can say that the US would never think of interfering in Greek affairs from 1952 forward, but four years before 1952, it was still perfectly OK for the US to do so, mainly because the US thought that Greek would go communist otherwise. (Well, I guess the Truman could have always claimed that the Greek government ASKED for aid from the US ...)

Regarding Robert Hale Merriman, Hemingway knew him and Merriman was actually the model for the character for Robert Jordan in Hemingway's novel "For Whom the Bell Tolls". (So he was also the model for the role of Robert Jordan that Gary Cooper played in the movie.)

Finally, your comment here:

"let's say that I strongly believe it was published right after the fall of junta for commercial reasons."

regarding "Heroes" is very interesting. I love "back-stories". But do you mean the fall of the junta in 1974? If so, what do you mean by "published"?

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

Originally Posted by Amethystos

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

But I can tell you that if the US govt had decided in 1970 to send troops to fight the colonels in Greece instead of the generals in North Vietnam, I would have volunteered immediately.

Congrats! I fully support people who are fighting for their beliefs, even though I suppose US government would have never interfere to the internal politics of a NATO ally, would they?

And I think you are probably making a good joke here, because it is of course true that when US President Truman sent US aid, equipment, and even personnel to Greece in 1947-1948. Greece was not yet a NATO member.

Greece did not become a member of NATO till 1952.

So, we can say that the US would never think of interfering in Greek affairs from 1952 forward, but four years before 1952, it was still perfectly OK for the US to do so, mainly because the US thought that Greek would go communist otherwise. (Well, I guess the Truman could have always claimed that the Greek government ASKED for aid from the US ...)

There was some misunderstanding here.
You were talking about fighting the colonels in 1970, when Greece was a "full" NATO member.
And as for the rest of your analysis, I totally agree with you if I have to face the actual facts under the scientific prism of some historian.
My personal problem regarding science is that there's no ethics in there.

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

Regarding Robert Hale Merriman, Hemingway knew him and Merriman was actually the model for the character for Robert Jordan in Hemingway's novel "For Whom the Bell Tolls". (So he was also the model for the role of Robert Jordan that Gary Cooper played in the movie.)

Great info!

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

Finally, your comment here:

"let's say that I strongly believe it was published right after the fall of junta for commercial reasons."

regarding "Heroes" is very interesting. I love "back-stories". But do you mean the fall of the junta in 1974? If so, what do you mean by "published"?

Censorship rules prior to 1974 were too strict for this song to be published-released in an album!
After the fall of junta there was a tsunami of albums with prior "forbidden" songs, cause all record companies wanted to ride the wave.

You wrote:

"Censorship rules prior to 1974 were too strict for this song to be published-released in an album!
After the fall of junta there was a tsunami of albums with prior "forbidden" songs, cause all record companies wanted to ride the wave."

Unfortunately, that sounds like it could be true. There have always been people willing to sell true pieces of the Cross for a profit.

Regarding US interference in Greek affairs, I was talking about 1970.

And you're correct.

At that point, the US government would not consider interfering, even though this refusal was hypocritical.

And that's the joke I thought you were making - mischieviously pointing out the US's hypocrisy in taking the position: "oh -of course we can't interfere with Greece now in 1970, but it was perfectly OK to do so 22 years earlier in 1948".

So I shouldn't have said "if the US decided to send troops" ... I should have said something like "if the US government clandestinely sponsored and organized a brigade of "volunteers" modelled after the Abraham Lincoln Brigade ...". Actually, this wouldn't be very different from US aid to the Central American contras, except in this case the US would have been on the right side ... for once.

But I have to ask you one more thing regarding this matter.

Didn't the colonels seize power by a coup? And if so, didn't they topple the existing legitimate government of Greece?

If so, I wonder what the NATO rules are about one NATO member acting to restore the legitimate government of another NATO member ...

Also, I hope you don't mind me asking. Would you mind saying how old you are, give or take 10 years? (Like 35-45, or 60-70, or whatever ...)

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

except in this case the US would have been on the right side ... for once.

I think there will never be a "right" side

[jhdFe3evXpk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhdFe3evXpk[/video]

But it's written in the starlight
And every line in your palm
We are fools to make war
On our brothers in arms

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

Didn't the colonels seize power by a coup? And if so, didn't they topple the existing legitimate government of Greece?

Yes there was a coup.
"Legitimate goverment" ... there wasn't a political stability during these years.

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

If so, I wonder what the NATO rules are about one NATO member acting to restore the legitimate government of another NATO member ...

Not a NATO expert!
Even if I have an opinion about it.

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

Also, I hope you don't mind me asking. Would you mind saying how old you are, give or take 10 years? (Like 35-45, or 60-70, or whatever ...)

Hate to share personal data on the net. Hope you don't mind.

I understand completely. I was only asking because knowing someone's age sometimes helps to understand their attitudes toward certain things ....

Amethystos - you've translated this 1975 song:

http://www.allthelyrics.com/forum/sh...894#post744901

A "heavy" song, very "heavy", if you know what I mean. Not a "man-woman".

So, do you think this is another song like Ήρωες that we discussed earlier in this thread?

What I'm trying to ask is whether you think this song was also released in 1975 after the fall of the colonels because the record companies were rushing to "cash in" on songs that were censored or banned under the colonels? Or is the history of this song different from the history of Ήρωες?

Also, a second related question: would you say that this song was actually played on radio stations once it was released, or did people just listen to it off the album or record? It's hard for me to believe that such a song was every played by "pop" radio stations - such a song would never be played by "pop" radio stations in the US.

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

Amethystos - you've translated this 1975 song:

http://www.allthelyrics.com/forum/sh...894#post744901

A "heavy" song, very "heavy", if you know what I mean. Not a "man-woman".

So, do you think this is another song like Ήρωες that we discussed earlier in this thread?

What I'm trying to ask is whether you think this song was also released in 1975 after the fall of the colonels because the record companies were rushing to "cash in" on songs that were censored or banned under the colonels? Or is the history of this song different from the history of Ήρωες?

According to this -> http://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?i...Date=25/7/2010
"Rizospastis", the official newspaper of Communistic Party of Greece, has acknowledged this song as a product of political influence, inspired by the torturing occurred by the military police during the 1945 - 1974 period.
Who am I to comment?

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

Also, a second related question: would you say that this song was actually played on radio stations once it was released, or did people just listen to it off the album or record? It's hard for me to believe that such a song was every played by "pop" radio stations - such a song would never be played by "pop" radio stations in the US.

I know that back on 1975 there were only 4 radio stations owned and directed by state.
So what "pop" radio stations are you talking about?

This song is classic cause radios played it A LOT back then PLUS cause of it's "purity".
Tsitsanis might had been a person having a "difficult" character, but his attitude towards music was crystal clear.

1) So and so. Companies are companies ofcourse, but serve people's line. Heroes exist in all eras, regardless of when they did something, are always anonymous.

2) This song among others was forbidden in that era ('67-'73), but Virvos wrote the lyrics back in '44 when he was in prison of Germans. The meaning remain the same in all centuries.

3) (Radio stations was free after colonels fall and those songs was something like music fashion at those times)

Mr. Amethystos and Mr. Dack -

You will never know how grateful I am that you are taking the time to explain things like this to someone like me who has only known the situation from the outside, and even then, not really knowing anything at all very deeply.

The three things I learned here from the two of you that I consider most important are:

1) Amethystos - your point that in 1975, radio was still state-controlled in Greece, so whoever controlled the state controlled radio content also;

2) Dack - your point that Vivros originally wrote the lyrics in 1944 - very important to know this, even though it's true what you say that some lyrics stay relevant across centuries.

3) Amethystos and Dack - you agree with each other that songs like this were "fashionable" after the fall of the colonels.

Duffy -

In a post earlier in this thread, I drew a parallel between songs that came out of the Greek civil war and songs that came out of the Spanish civil war ten years earlier:

Ήρωες
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6x9udcfDiQ
http://www.stixoi.info/stixoi.php?in...&song_id=30332

Si me quieres escribir
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLxa33HR3gY
http://crydee.sai.msu.su/public/lyri...ieres_escribir

And last night, I was browsing through your "real Greek music thread" where you kindly put the full album links, and I came across your item (10):

10) ΑΧ ΕΡΩΤΑ / AH EROTA / AHH LOVE
CHRISTOS LEONTIS - FEDERICO GARCIA LORCA (transl. L. Papadopoulos)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KcV...layer_embedded

As I'm sure you are aware, Garcia Lorca was THE single most famous left-wing poet associated with the Republican cause in Spain before his eventual assasination by Franco's fascists:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federico_Garc%C3%ADa_Lorca

So could you tell us a little more about your album (10)? Are all the cuts on it translations of Garcia Lorca's poems? Can you tell us why Leontis/Papadopoulos decided to make the album? Were they "left-wing" at the time the album was made?

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

So could you tell us a little more about your album (10)? Are all the cuts on it translations of Garcia Lorca's poems? Can you tell us why Leontis/Papadopoulos decided to make the album? Were they "left-wing" at the time the album was made?

Ha ha .. story is great! Papadopoulos as a poet, he worked with the translation of Lorca in a few poems. Gave the poems to his friend Manos Loizos to set to music, "to make money" as he said. (At that time they were both poor). The Loizos asked him where he learned Spanish! Papadopoulos railed him. Loizos laughed and continued to mock him. Sometime entered the house Leontis. "Why you basted?" he asked. Papadopoulos said that Loizos is an *******. The Loizos asked: "how is called the ******* in Spanish?" You know what happened next ..!
Leontis asked poems to study them. In 10 days, he got on the phone Lefteris and put him to hear the music from the cassette player. Thus was born the Ah erota and Loizos regretted. (For a long time, asking if the translation is good). But the music Loizo's no longer.

They were always left-wing, Loizos more perhaps.

That IS a great story, Duffy.

How do you know this stuff?

Mainly from biographies and autobiographies?

Liner notes?

Or other sources?

From the book written by Lefteris Papadopoulos: "Manos Loizos"