I'm sorry, but Markos plays τα ματοκλαδα σου λαμπουν like karsilama, NOT zeibekiko

Thread: I'm sorry, but Markos plays τα ματοκλαδα σου λαμπουν like karsilama, NOT zeibekiko

Tags: None
  1. Duffy Dack said:

    Default

    Gee! George Zabetas never wrote karsilamas or tsifteteli, this is a very good hasaposerviko / syrtaki (he named like that by the way) and means: fast "syrtos" as the dance of central Greece and islands.
    Αν υπάρχει κάτι που δεν χρειάζεται την πλειοψηφία για να είναι σωστό, αυτό είναι η ανθρώπινη συνείδηση.
     
  2. David Halitsky's Avatar

    David Halitsky said:

    Default

    I have to very respectfully disagree, Duffy. I know I don't really know anything, but I do know what I read on the web, and what you're saying differs completelty from what's on the web.

    First, Sirtaki was not created by Zambetas. It was a choreographic creation of Provias in 1964 to the music of Theodorakis for Zorba's dance in the movie.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirtaki

    Are you saying there are two different sirtaki's, one created by Provias and one by Zamebtas?

    Second, Provias did include elements of the syrtos in his sirtaki, but the syrtos is incorporated into the slow part of the sirtaki, NOT the fast part.

    Third, the fast and slow parts of the Provias syrtaki are both in straight 4/4, nothing to do with 9/8.

    And the song we're talking about here (Τι να φταίει) is definitely 9/8.

    So if the "Greek" in you wants to think that Zambetas wrote a fast Greek 9/8 here instead of a fast 9/8 Turkish karsilama, there's nothing technically wrong with that opinion. Because according to the link that Amethystos posted earlier in the thread, it's difficult to say where zeibekiko ends and karsilama begins.

    But OBJECTIVELY speaking, without worrying about considerations of "ethnic purity", there ain't ANY difference rhythm-wise between karsilama and certain variations of the zeibekiko. (That's the way a "citizen of the world" would look at it - heh heh heh.)

    Finally, do you yourself really think that the rhythm of this hasaposerviko:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b98tIrfm-0

    is ANYHTING like the rhythm of Τι να φταίει, the song we're discussing here?
    Last edited by David Halitsky; 12-20-2014 at 01:26 PM.
     
  3. Amethystos's Avatar

    Amethystos said:

    Default All I know about The syrtaki ...

    Koutsourelis recorded "Kritiko syrtaki" or "Armenohoriano syrtaki" in 1950. (1)
    Theodorakis recorded "Strose to stroma sou gia dio" in 1963 for the theatrical-play "Gitonia ton agelon", having Kourkoulos (actor/protagonist) and Silinos(dancer/protagonist) as singers. (2)

    For the "Zorba" movie Theodorakis merged "Strose to stroma sou" with the last part of the "Kritiko syrtaki" to suggest a basic motif for the actors to dance into.

    After watching the result, both composer and director agreed there was no need for a new piece being written.

    So (even if I'm NOT a musician) it looks like the first part is chasapikos and the last part is syrtos. Yes seems strange for a syrtos to be fast-paced but it's the reality.

    (1) you can skip at 2.17

    [MXN6G4CMsmA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXN6G4CMsmA[/video]

    (2) this is the original-theatrical version of "Strose to stroma sou"

    [d8X-GL34YqM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8X-GL34YqM[/video]
    "Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to?
    You will never find that life for which you are looking.
    When the gods created man they allotted to him death,
    but life they retained in their own keeping"
     
  4. David Halitsky's Avatar

    David Halitsky said:

    Default

    Amethystos - thanks for that correction to the Wiki story about the syrtaki.

    So, now that you've given us the correct facts, let's watch and listen to the part of Kritiko syrtaki you pointed to (from 2:17 to the end.)

    Do you see his foot tapping? Clap with him, the same way his foot is tapping.

    Now clap to Τι να φταίει, the song we're talking about here.

    Are you clapping the same way?

    I don't think you are. But please let us know what YOU think.

    If you think you are clapping the same way to both, then Duffy is correct that Τι να φταίει is really a "syrtaki".

    And it's not up to me to resolve this question, because I'm not Greek.
    Last edited by David Halitsky; 12-20-2014 at 03:36 PM.
     
  5. Duffy Dack said:

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David Halitsky View Post
    I have to very respectfully disagree, Duffy. I know I don't really know anything, but I do know what I read on the web, and what you're saying differs completelty from what's on the web.

    First, Sirtaki was not created by Zambetas. It was a choreographic creation of Provias in 1964 to the music of Theodorakis for Zorba's dance in the movie.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirtaki

    Are you saying there are two different sirtaki's, one created by Provias and one by Zamebtas?

    Second, Provias did include elements of the syrtos in his sirtaki, but the syrtos is incorporated into the slow part of the sirtaki, NOT the fast part.

    Third, the fast and slow parts of the Provias syrtaki are both in straight 4/4, nothing to do with 9/8.

    And the song we're talking about here (Τι να φταίει) is definitely 9/8.

    So if the "Greek" in you wants to think that Zambetas wrote a fast Greek 9/8 here instead of a fast 9/8 Turkish karsilama, there's nothing technically wrong with that opinion. Because according to the link that Amethystos posted earlier in the thread, it's difficult to say where zeibekiko ends and karsilama begins.

    But OBJECTIVELY speaking, without worrying about considerations of "ethnic purity", there ain't ANY difference rhythm-wise between karsilama and certain variations of the zeibekiko. (That's the way a "citizen of the world" would look at it - heh heh heh.)

    Finally, do you yourself really think that the rhythm of this hasaposerviko:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b98tIrfm-0

    is ANYHTING like the rhythm of Τι να φταίει, the song we're discussing here?

    I don't read wiki for music informations, I have my own library and knowledge. So i didn't say about choreography, all i'm saying is that Zambetas is the first who named the faster hasaposerviko "sirtaki"

    Also he was saying in his autobiography that never liked the tsifteteli & karsilamas.

    [wlykI79RFv0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlykI79RFv0[/video]
    Αν υπάρχει κάτι που δεν χρειάζεται την πλειοψηφία για να είναι σωστό, αυτό είναι η ανθρώπινη συνείδηση.
     
  6. Amethystos's Avatar

    Amethystos said:

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David Halitsky View Post
    Amethystos - thanks for that correction to the Wiki story about the syrtaki.
    I'm not an expert to correct you or anybody, all I do is keep searching.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Halitsky View Post
    So, now that you've given us the correct facts, let's watch and listen to the part of Kritiko syrtaki you pointed to (from 2:17 to the end.)

    Do you see his foot tapping? Clap with him, the same way his foot is tapping.

    Now clap to Τι να φταίει, the song we're talking about here.

    Are you clapping the same way?

    I don't think you are. But please let us know what YOU think.

    If you think you are clapping the same way to both, then Duffy is correct that Τι να φταίει is really a "syrtaki".

    And it's not up to me to resolve this question, because I'm not Greek.
    I'll say it for the last time, I'm not a musician.
    But I think I know how to dance a chasaposervikos (as probably ALL GREEKS do).
    Well to me these guys on 3.32 of the following vid -which are pros btw- are dancing FACING EACH OTHER in a way that karsilamas is being danced.
    Song is "Τι να φταίει" by Zabetas.

    [IW6vuFIBzqE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW6vuFIBzqE[/video]

    This is all I found.

    Ps. In his kind of "autobiography" book, Zabetas doesn't refer to a tempo about most of his songs, unfortunately "Τι να φταίει" is one of those. Talking about the "και η βρόχα έπιπτε ... straight through" book by Ioanna Kliassiou
    "Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to?
    You will never find that life for which you are looking.
    When the gods created man they allotted to him death,
    but life they retained in their own keeping"
     
  7. David Halitsky's Avatar

    David Halitsky said:

    Default

    Tahira - at 223 AM, Athens time 12/21, "your" song

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtgOVKs-1b0

    was being played by the "Dalkas" laika station.

    See this list:

    http://www.listenlive.eu/greece.html

    for web url of station.

    Not as good as Glenti FM 101.1 for rebetiko, but pretty good laika.

    Also. here's another one with a beat more like "karsilama" - to use your way of describing the beat, it counts DUM DUM DUM tak tak tak:

    Στο τραπέζι που τα πίνω - 1970
    http://www.stixoi.info/stixoi.php?in...&song_id=13420
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp-OXnfaFGI

    Note that the "DUM DUM DUM tak tak tak" beat gets really clear at around 0:58 - skip to there and you'll hear what I mean.
    Last edited by David Halitsky; 12-20-2014 at 07:37 PM.
     
  8. Tahira's Avatar

    Tahira said:

    Default

    Is it the same version as this one? ( I couldn't open your link)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD-8Oq6Fgug

    To tell the truth I wouldn't have recognized it as a Karsilima. I am more used to the typical arabic rhythms. There are almost no dance lessons to the rhythms of the Balkan. I have had only once Dance lessons to Karsilima it is about 20 years ago with the turkish dancer Nesrin Topkapi (she was a star in the 70ies). And I remember she described that there are also differencies in tempo of Karsilima and the slower one is called "Roman".

    So I can recognize the Karsilima only whe it is played really really clear. Like in "Rampi Rampi"
     
  9. David Halitsky's Avatar

    David Halitsky said:

    Default

    Yes your version of the song is pretty much the same.

    But in your version, skip to 1:00 and listen carefully for the next "tak tak tak" - it will occur at 1:04. The next "tak tak tak" will be betwen 1:07 and 1:08 (closer to 1:08), and the next one between 1:11 and 1:12. Use those to orient yourself to the right tempo for the whole "DUM DUM DUM tak tak tak", and once you've got the right tempo, close your eyes and clap or tap the "DUM DUM DUM tak tak tak" for the rest of the piece, REGARDLESS of what the music is doing. The musicians play AGAINST the beat, which is what great Greek or blues or jazz musicians always do, so sometime it may sound like your clapping is "off". But it won't be - just keep doing your "DUM DUM DUM tak tak tak" and you'll see how you're really always IN synch with the music.
     
  10. David Halitsky's Avatar

    David Halitsky said:

    Default

    By the way, I understand what you mean about karsilima not being so familiar to dancers mainly trained in Arabic "beledi" or "ras sharqi". The only reason I know it so well is because the dancers in the New York City Greek clubs were originally Turkish (from Turkey), and since the American dancers learned from them, they always ended their performances with a very up-tempo karsilima.
    Last edited by David Halitsky; 12-21-2014 at 03:13 AM.
     
  11. Tahira's Avatar

    Tahira said:

    Default

    Hi David, yes I can hear the rhythm "Dum Dum Dum tak tak tak" , I can calp it, but I miss the Karsilima Feeling; maybe you are right as the turkish flavour is missing.

    I know from some biographies form oriental dancers about the night Club szenery in New York in the 70ies. (Souhaila Salimpour, Morrocco, Amaya, Amoura and so on). I also have some old video tapes of them and I have had also some lessons with them.
    But I found out, that the typical raks sharqi and beledi music is much more easier to listen to for the european audiance, as it is 4/4 rhythm. So it was no Need for me to ko deeper into the Balkan rhythms.
    Itīs now my personal "going back to my roots" which leaded me into greek folcloric dance and find our more about it.
     
  12. David Halitsky's Avatar

    David Halitsky said:

    Default

    That's funny you know Morocco (her nickname was "Rocky") - very popular dancer and a very funny human person

    https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...varga%20dinicu

    Regarding the Arabic 4/4 - yes Arabic music keeps the MAIN beat simple because the whole idea is for the musicians (particularly the drummer) to play variations on the beat.

    Skip to 0:51 in this video

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0AFeFaUmsI

    and watch/listen to the drummer (he's also the singer.)

    His name was Ali Hafid - he came to New York as part of the Moroccan World's Fair troupe (1967?) and became an instant star. (He was also the drummer in the Broadway production of "Zorba" a couple of years later.)

    He died way too early (60 maybe) of lung cancer (always had a cigarette in his mouth.) And the sad thing is that there are so few video clips of him. He was a legend.

    But I'll tell you a funny story - when Ali finally wound up playing at Manny Dworman's Cafe Feenjon as the drummer in Manny's house band, all the amateur "wanna-be" dancers would get up to dance when he did his Arabic numbers, and he would speak to them from the stage in Arabic while they were dancing.

    They thought he was saying encouraging things, but he was really saying terrible things about their dancing. I guess it was a little mean of him, but it was very funny if you knew what he was saying.

    Besides, the dancers usually deserved it - they really didn't know enough yet to get up dancing for an audience who really knew good belly-dancing.

    You can also hear a lot of Ali's drumming on this clip:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4dImDe1Ruo

    Still amazes me to listen to him.

    And by the way, the young bearded guitarist in the clip is the same as the "old man" playing bouzoukee in this one

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBtTBA89IrQ.

    (I posted this link here in a different thread.)
    Last edited by David Halitsky; 12-21-2014 at 04:02 AM.
     
  13. David Halitsky's Avatar

    David Halitsky said:

    Default

    Amethystos and Duffy -

    listen to the version of the Zorba sirtaki from 4:42 to 6:47 in this clip:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4dImDe1Ruo

    As I said to Tahira above, the drummer was a genius.
     
  14. Tahira's Avatar

    Tahira said:

    Default

    Oh my good! I know "Mach Mach"; to this song I learned one of my first choreogrpahy it was with a scarf. I only had this song on a Cassette on which was written "songs form Cafe Fenjoon".

    Morrrocco has published a book "Ask aunt Rocky" (I do not know if the english title is the same). Where she talking about her life and specifics about her Dance. The Generation of women who started dancing like me about 20 years ago, they all know Morrocco!
     
  15. David Halitsky's Avatar

    David Halitsky said:

    Default

    That's a great coincidence about Mach Mach, Tahira. I'm glad I could play my part in it.

    I'm curious - have you heard of the US dancer Elena (real name Elena Lentini)?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7aDFJfN400

    I thought maybe you had heard of her, because she did a lot of touring on your side of the ocean.

    My friend Anahid (Sofian) always thought very highly of Elena as a dancer, not just a Middle Eastern dancer. And that was high praise, coming from Anahid.

    Also, by the way, if you've ever heard of the US dancer "Serena" (Wilson), you might have noticed that the oud in this clip of Elena is being played by Serena's son. (I won't speak ill of either of them, so I'll just leave it at that.)
     
  16. Tahira's Avatar

    Tahira said:

    Default

    Yes I have heard of Serene Wilson and Elena Lentini, but I have had no "face" to the names. But I like your clip. First song is called "Aziza" a classic belly dance song.
    Let's go back to greek music :-)


    ...and: there are no coincidences! If something happens it has to be so!
     
  17. David Halitsky's Avatar

    David Halitsky said:

    Default

    You wrote:

    "Let's go back to greek music :-)"

    What?????

    No way, Tahira! Not until you post a clip of one of YOUR performances!!!!

    Just kidding, just kidding.

    Greek music it shall be, I promise.
     
  18. David Halitsky's Avatar

    David Halitsky said:

    Default

    Δημητρούλα μου - 1936
    http://www.stixoi.info/stixoi.php?in...s&song_id=5110
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UQl7Y1RF3M

    A real clear example (in my opinion) of a karsilama that's obviously Turkish-influenced, but still very much Greek.
     
  19. Tahira's Avatar

    Tahira said:

    Default

    The link you posted was uploaded by thelastspartanian. He used to be here in the forums also some years ago; unfortunatelly he does not join this forums anymore, but he also had a very big knowledge about greek music.

    By the way, I couldnīt open the link but I found another one and you are right: Karsilama.

    There are only performances with the show troupe I belong to on youtube, no solo performances.
     
  20. David Halitsky's Avatar

    David Halitsky said:

    Default

    Tahira - you wrote:

    "There are only performances with the show troupe I belong to on youtube, no solo performances."

    And I can only reply:

    "Oh Tahira - you're such a tease! Go ahead and post a clip - you know you want to!"

    (Just kidding - reallly - I'm kidding.)

    Seriously now - glad you found another link for the karsilama which I posted. It's really interesting the way Greeks handle the karsilama - much more subtle than the Turks, in my opinion. The Turks just "let it all hang out", like in Rampi, Rampi.

    Or maybe that's not fair. Maybe the only Turkish karsilama's that I happen to have heard are the ones like Rampi, Rampi ...
    Last edited by David Halitsky; 12-21-2014 at 08:11 PM.