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  1. #41
    Senior Member David Halitsky's Avatar
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    Here's another beautiful Greek karsilama sung by Bithikotsis:

    Που Είναι Τα Χρόνια - 1968
    http://www.stixoi.info/stixoi.php?in...ls&song_id=476
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrsC8f2wm3Q

    The DUM DUM DUM tak tak tak karsilama beat is "crystal-clear" in this song.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Tahira's Avatar
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    I guess it's the same song, like this on (couldn't open your link)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ljpCgRaBgc

    Very nice song!
    I have 3 book shelfs full with oriental Music; I think I will start collecting greek music now!

  3. #43
    Senior Member David Halitsky's Avatar
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    Tahira -

    Here's another "hidden" karsilama - I've heard this song a million times without consciously realizing it's actually a karsilama. But when I heard it tonight, I heard the karsilama right away, because we have been talking so much about it.

    Glenti 101.1 FM 2:07 AM Friday, December 26, 2014 (GMT+2) Xanthi time
    Ένα τραγούδι πες μου ακόμα - 1979
    http://www.stixoi.info/stixoi.php?in...s&song_id=8365

    You can hear the karsilama DUM DUM DUM tak tak tak very clearly in Rita's version:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voS5bT5u6s8

    and also in this version by Μιχάλης Μενιδιάτης:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeYynvxI6_g

    I haven't listed to the others.

    And here's another one:

    Η καταστροφή μου είσαι - 2007
    http://www.stixoi.info/stixoi.php?in...&song_id=26511
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUIT5TWB3q4
    Last edited by David Halitsky; 12-25-2014 at 09:03 PM.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Tahira's Avatar
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    To tell the truth I wouldn't have recognized them.

    An I wonder to myself, is this karsilama or do that songs belong to the big group of 9/8 rhythms? I really do not know.
    But I think you have more knowledge about this accodring to your Long experience with musicians and dancers.

  5. #45
    Senior Member David Halitsky's Avatar
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    I don't know either, Tahira.

    If some expert told me, "No, that's not a true karsilama - it's a Greek 9/8 that happens to be accented like a karsiilama", then I would be perfectly happy with that explanation.

    In other words, it's not important to me whether we say that a song is a karsilima or some other kind of song - what's important is that we agree on how the musicians are playing the rhythm of the song: are they playing the song with a DUM DUM DUM tak tak tak rhythm?

    So, I'd be perfectly happy if we just said - "Oh - that song has a DUM DUM DUM tak tak tak beat like a karsilama", instead of saying "Oh, that song is a karsilama".

  6. #46
    Senior Member Tahira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Halitsky View Post
    I don't know either, Tahira.

    If some expert told me, "No, that's not a true karsilama - it's a Greek 9/8 that happens to be accented like a karsiilama", then I would be perfectly happy with that explanation.

    In other words, it's not important to me whether we say that a song is a karsilima or some other kind of song - what's important is that we agree on how the musicians are playing the rhythm of the song: are they playing the song with a DUM DUM DUM tak tak tak rhythm?

    So, I'd be perfectly happy if we just said - "Oh - that song has a DUM DUM DUM tak tak tak beat like a karsilama", instead of saying "Oh, that song is a karsilama".

    Let's nominate ourselves as experts
    I think this is the best explanation "beat like a karsilama"

    As Amethystos wrote "who knows where zeimbekiko ends and Karsilama starts", ist the same is it a karsilama, where does it start, where does it end..?
    That#s why I like music and dance, you have certain "pattern" and you can create and create and create and there is always something new and interesting coming out!

  7. #47
    Senior Member David Halitsky's Avatar
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    "beat like a karsilama"

    Yes.

    Perfect.

  8. #48
    Senior Member David Halitsky's Avatar
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    I'm putting this song in this thread so its together with the other songs with "beat like karsilama", even though there's now a separate thread in the regular translation forum for this song (thanks to Amethystos and Duffy.)

    Μπάρκο-ξεμπάρκο - 1974
    http://www.stixoi.info/stixoi.php?in...&song_id=44292
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm4hWgbYoLY

  9. #49
    Senior Member David Halitsky's Avatar
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    And here's another that Radio Rainbow Greece or Radio Greek Sound played today; Tahira - it's probably one of Glykeria's that you know:

    Πήρε τ΄ όνειρο ο καιρός - 1980
    http://www.stixoi.info/stixoi.php?in...s&song_id=1540
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25I4wXktDOw

    When I'm actually on-site at work, I have to listen to the Live365 Greek stations like Radio Rainbow Greece and Radio Greek Sound because I can't catch the streams from the actual real radio stations like Glenti in Xanthi and Dalkas in Khalkis.
    Last edited by David Halitsky; 12-29-2014 at 06:56 PM.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Tahira's Avatar
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    No, I didn't know that one. Very nice. I love Glykeria's songs.

    Yesterday I took some time and watched some videos concerning Karsilama on YouTube. So I found out, the way of dancing I know is the turkish or gypsy style, which is very bouncy and has heavy hip work.

    The traditional greek karsilama is danced with man and wife opposite (as pairs) but much more delicate (don't know if this is the right word) in the movements.

    But all of them had the typical beat like in "Rompi Rompi". So I think we really have to stick to the Expression "a beat like Karsilama", when it is not the typical drum beat. I am thinking a lot about this at the moment, and I hope that the solution of this comes to us soon.

  11. #51
    Senior Member David Halitsky's Avatar
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    Here's two more with "beat like karsilama" (dum dum dum tak tak tak). Remember, I'm not looking for these - they come on the radio while I'm listening during the day

    1)
    Ήσουνα τι ήσουνα 1982
    Στίχοι: Τέτος Δημητριάδης
    Μουσική: Κωνσταντίνος Μπέζος
    http://www.stixoi.info/stixoi.php?in...ls&song_id=775
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f3ugcVWgNQ

    Notice that in the video clip, he's dancing to it KIND OF like a zeibekiko, even though you can clearly see the audience clapping the "tak tak tak" part of the beat (like right around 2:00).

    2)
    Το βαπόρι απ΄ την Περσία 1978
    Στίχοι: Βασίλης Τσιτσάνης
    Μουσική: Βασίλης Τσιτσάνης
    http://www.stixoi.info/stixoi.php?in...s&song_id=2429
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOD0oK-R8hg

  12. #52
    Senior Member David Halitsky's Avatar
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    I was reviewing the youtube clips for the songs that I've placed on the "best according to Duffy" list, and I realized that these two have "beat like karsilama" also - so I'm posting them here too:

    Οι μισοί καλοί - 1974
    Στίχοι: Άκης Πάνου
    Μουσική: Άκης Πάνου
    http://www.stixoi.info/stixoi.php?in...&song_id=11478
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRKiy6QK2l8

    Ούτε αχ δε θα πω - 1969
    http://www.stixoi.info/stixoi.php?in...s&song_id=5269
    Στίχοι: Άκης Πάνου
    Μουσική: Άκης Πάνου
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK0I2uIjUAQ

    (I guess Πάνου liked that "dum dum dum tak tak tak" rhythm ... both of these are his ...)

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Halitsky View Post
    Here's two more with "beat like karsilama" (dum dum dum tak tak tak). Remember, I'm not looking for these - they come on the radio while I'm listening during the day

    1)
    Ήσουνα τι ήσουνα 1982
    Στίχοι: Τέτος Δημητριάδης
    Μουσική: Κωνσταντίνος Μπέζος
    http://www.stixoi.info/stixoi.php?in...ls&song_id=775
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f3ugcVWgNQ
    The composer and the librettist was the same person: (K. Mpezos / A. Kostis) Κώστας Μπέζος ή Α. Κωστής.
    Το τραγούδι είναι του 1930 και όχι του 1982!
    Ο Τέτος Δημητριάδης ήταν ο πρώτος που το τραγούδησε 1930...(Odeon)
    Αν υπάρχει κάτι που δεν χρειάζεται την πλειοψηφία για να είναι σωστό, αυτό είναι η ανθρώπινη συνείδηση.

  14. #54
    Senior Member David Halitsky's Avatar
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    Σας ευχαριστώ για τη διόρθωση όσον αφορά το 1930, Duffy.

    (Grammatical note to Amethystos - note the "implied participle" here also ...

    όσον αφορά = "with concerns" = "concerning"

  15. #55
    Senior Member Tahira's Avatar
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    I have found something interesting about Karshlimar in a belly dance forum. It's a long discussion and I will copy here the main/important thing abouth it. Ist from the turkish dancer Ahmet Ogren, where he explains that Karshlimar is just a Dance.

    Dear Dancers,
    Thank you very much for sharing your prespectives . I would like to share my 30 years of Dance experience and 20 years of my research on Roman Dance with you.
    First we must come to understand that:
    1- KARSILAMA is not a Roman Dance.
    2- No Oriental Dancer in Turkey, will ever do KARSILAMA dance as part of their dance routine.
    The reason of similarity between Karsilama and the Roman dance is the fact that they both share 9/8 rythm. All music that has 9/8 rythm is not a Roman music.
    Karsilama Dance has rules and regulations, without these rules there wont be a Karsilama Dance!
    These Rules are:
    1- Measures must be within 9
    2- Handkerchief must be used.
    3- Most important part of the dance is that it must be danced with at least two or more people. It is never done as a Solo Dance.

    Roman Dance is an indivudual dance and is a dance of improvisation. Roman Dancer dances according to what one feels with in the music that is being played.
    In order to dance Romany dance one must do a research on Roman Dance. Their life style and mentallity must be taken to consideration.
    The reason for all this confusement is the result of some dancers taking few Roman Classes then teaching others there amature way interpreting, Roman Dance. This as a result harms The Turkish Roman Dance.
    If you want to really learn Roman Dance then research on your teachers as well, swirling the skirts does not make a Roman Dancer!
    Of course you can dance to 9/8 but do not say, “ I am dancing to Karsilama or Roman.”

    The difference between Karsilama and Roman dance is;
    1- Karsilama has 1-2, 1-2, 1-2, 1-2-3 as a measuring rythm (Never can be danced as a Solo)
    2- In Roman, 1-2, 1-2, 1-2, 1-3 as a measuring rythm more simplified 1-2-3-4-5
    One step, two step, three step, Four; (Skip) Jump, Five step.

    Best regards,
    Ahmet Ogren


    this is where I found it: http://bellydanceforums.net/threads/...arsilama/page2

    On other Websites I have found the Information that there are about 20 different ways of playing the 9/8 rhythms and the differences are in the fall of th beats.

  16. #56
    Senior Member David Halitsky's Avatar
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    Great stuff, Tahira.

    Find more for us! Find more stuff like that. The more we know about what we're listening to, the more we'll enjoy listening to it.

  17. #57
    Senior Member David Halitsky's Avatar
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    Hi Tahira - Here's another 9/8 accented like karsilama ("with beat like karsilama"), but it's very very subtle.

    Θέλω να πηγαίνω - 1989
    Στίχοι: Σπύρος Γιατράς
    Μουσική: Αλέκος Χρυσοβέργης & Ειρήνη Χρυσοβέργη
    http://www.stixoi.info/stixoi.php?in...&song_id=31455
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oM6jk9xN-yQ

    Can you hear the "tak tak tak" part of the beat?

    Like I said, it's very subtle - you have to find the "dum dum dum" first - then you'll hear the "tak tak tak" come right in after it.

    Notice that sometimes the bouzoukee player hits three "high notes" in a row for the "tak tak tak".) I think that was to let Mr. Stratos know that the next "1" (start of the next measure) is coming up ... heh heh heh ... just kidding .... I'm sure Mr. Stratos never once lost his place in any 9/8, no matter how it was accented ...
    Last edited by David Halitsky; 01-10-2015 at 08:35 PM.

  18. #58
    Senior Member Tahira's Avatar
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    Another one which I can't open :-(
    I only find one "Thelo na pigaino" by Vasilis Karras ins YouTube. But htis one has also this 9(8 accents.

  19. #59
    Senior Member David Halitsky's Avatar
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    Yes - I found your version

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCm8EPiyTe8

    They play it faster, but with the same accentuation.

    So it must be that Ο κ Χρυσοβέργης και η κα Χρυσοβέργης originally wrote the song to be played with that accentuation.

    (
    I'm assuming here that Αλέκος and Ειρήνη Χρυσοβέργης are husband and wife - I guess they could also be brother and sister, or father and daughter, etc.)

  20. #60
    Senior Member David Halitsky's Avatar
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    GreekOldies (Live365) streamed this today (1/12) around 2pm US time

    Κάτω στα Πετράλωνα - 1968
    Στίχοι: Νίκος Γκάτσος
    Μουσική: Δήμος Μούτσης
    http://www.stixoi.info/stixoi.php?in...&song_id=33726
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbC6JqRMpEo

    And RadioRainbowGreece (Live365) streamed this one today (1/12) around 230 pm US time

    Ο παραμυθάς
    Στίχοι: Φώτης Μιχαλάτος
    Μουσική: Γιώργος Μουζάκης
    http://www.stixoi.info/stixoi.php?in...&song_id=54898
    (sorry - can't find a youtube clip)
    Last edited by David Halitsky; 01-12-2015 at 12:27 PM.

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