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  1. #1
    Senior Member David Halitsky's Avatar
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    Default I'm sorry, but Markos plays τα ματοκλαδα σου λαμπουν like karsilama, NOT zeibekiko

    You all know that the zeibekiko and karsilama both have 9/8 rhythms.

    The difference is the way the beats are accented.

    So, here's a classic zeibekiko (maybe sung a little faster than usual):

    Χωρίσαμε ένα δειλινό:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPgB6IBrPhU

    and here's the classic Turkish/Greek karsilama which the dancers all use:

    ΡΑΜΠΙ ΡΑΜΠΙ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESjAGJpJVLk

    and here's Markos himself doing τα ματοκλαδα σου λαμπουν:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJeB6zAsKx0

    I don't know about you, but when I try to clap to τα ματοκλαδα σου λαμπουν, I can't clap like I can to Χωρίσαμε ένα δειλινό. I have to clap like I clap to ΡΑΜΠΙ ΡΑΜΠΙ (but MUCH slower of course.) In other words, I have to clap to τα ματοκλαδα σου λαμπουν like this:

    ONE (two) ONE (two) ONE (two) ONE two three

    with no clap on the three "two's" that are in parentheses.

    So to me, Markos played his famous song more like a karsilama than a zeibekiko.

    How about you? How do you "hear" τα ματοκλαδα σου λαμπουν - more like a zeibekiko or more like a karsilama?
    Last edited by David Halitsky; 12-17-2014 at 02:31 AM.

  2. #2
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    1 & 3 are fast zeimbekika but 2 isn't. Fast zeimbekiko needs professionalism to dance it, i prefer to hear...

    That's the reason that the Bithikotsis made it slower (i can dance this cut and is my favorite)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uImq0Ct4JR8
    Αν υπάρχει κάτι που δεν χρειάζεται την πλειοψηφία για να είναι σωστό, αυτό είναι η ανθρώπινη συνείδηση.

  3. #3
    Senior Member David Halitsky's Avatar
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    We were already in agreement about 1 and 2 - (1) is a faster than usual zeibekiko and (2) is not a zeibekiko at all - it's a true karsilama.

    But your note about Bithikotsis slowing (3) down really helped - because I listened to your cut and it's true - the way he slowed down the tempo of τα ματοκλαδα σου λαμπουν does make the rhythm sound more like the usual zeibekiko rhythm that you can clap to in the usual way, and less like the rhythm of a true karsilama such as (2).

    So, thanks for providing an insight that probably only a native Greek with a lot of "listening" experience can provide.

    One other thing - I don't think Bellou intended her version of Χωρίσαμε ένα δειλινό to be danceable, at least not by your average club dancer. Even the more modern TrioBelCanto version (which is way too "pretty" for my taste) is sung too fast to dance to. I think this is more like a "listening" song that happens to be in zeibekiko rhythm.
    Last edited by David Halitsky; 12-17-2014 at 08:50 AM.

  4. #4
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    Yes but here we have the song as Tsitsanis (the God) wrote
    Is this or not a zeimbekiko?
    ( Tsitsanis speaks about Bellou at the beginning)

    Αν υπάρχει κάτι που δεν χρειάζεται την πλειοψηφία για να είναι σωστό, αυτό είναι η ανθρώπινη συνείδηση.

  5. #5
    Senior Member David Halitsky's Avatar
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    Yes I agree - this version sounds to me like a classic zeibekiko that is slow enough that you can definitely dance to it without being a professional.

    Thanks for providing this second cut of the song.

  6. #6
    Ange ou Demon Amethystos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Halitsky View Post
    How about you? How do you "hear" τα ματοκλαδα σου λαμπουν - more like a zeibekiko or more like a karsilama?
    Zebekiko
    "Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to?
    You will never find that life for which you are looking.
    When the gods created man they allotted to him death,
    but life they retained in their own keeping"

  7. #7
    Senior Member David Halitsky's Avatar
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    OK, Amethystos and Duffy - here's what I'm going to do to keep my sanity (heh heh heh).

    If the song is played in the familiar "syncopated" zeibekiko rhythm:

    DUM-da da-DUM DUM followed immediately by DUM-da da-DUM DUM DUM

    then I'm going to think of it as a zeibekiko. This is regardless of whether it's played faster like Χωρίσαμε ένα δειλινό or slower like Duffy' favorite Τρελοκόριτσο:

    Τρελοκόριτσο - 1961
    http://www.stixoi.info/stixoi.php?in...s&song_id=3938
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUyYgiYPy-I

    But if the song is a zeibekiko like Markos' τα ματοκλαδα σου λαμπουν, i.e. if the song is a zeibekiko that is NOT played with the same familiar "syncopated" beat that you hear in Χωρίσαμε ένα δειλινό or Τρελοκόριτσο, then I'm going to refer to the song as an "unsyncopated zeibekiko" to remind myself that you can't EASILY clap to the song in the usual "syncopated" way:

    DUM-da da-DUM DUM followed immediately by DUM-da da-DUM DUM DUM

    Finally, I actually think there's a third case represented by the (supposedly) most famous zeibekiko of all, namely, Theodorakis/Loizos zeibekiko Το ζεϊμπέκικο της Ευδοκίας:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GeIXT9xqWM

    Even though Το ζεϊμπέκικο της Ευδοκίας isn't PLAYED with the same standard syncopated beat as Χωρίσαμε ένα δειλινό or Τρελοκόριτσο, I'm also going to consider Το ζεϊμπέκικο της Ευδοκίας to be a syncopated rebekiko because you can still clap to Το ζεϊμπέκικο της Ευδοκίας the same way you would to Χωρίσαμε ένα δειλινό or Τρελοκόριτσο:

    DUM-da da-DUM DUM followed immediately by DUM-da da-DUM DUM DUM

    And so I ask you and Duffy: EVEN if you think all of the above is crazy, do you at least agree that the beats are accented very differently in

    Χωρίσαμε ένα δειλινό or Τρελοκόριτσο
    versus
    τα ματοκλαδα σου λαμπουν
    versus
    Το ζεϊμπέκικο της Ευδοκίας

    even though they're all zeibekiko's?

    Or to put this another way, can you yourself clap to τα ματοκλαδα σου λαμπουν in the same "syncopated" way you can to Χωρίσαμε ένα δειλινό or Τρελοκόριτσο or Το ζεϊμπέκικο της Ευδοκίας:

    DUM-da da-DUM DUM followed immediately by DUM-da da-DUM DUM DUM

    Try it - I think you'll find it's very difficult.
    Last edited by David Halitsky; 12-18-2014 at 12:59 PM.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Tahira's Avatar
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    ...couldn't open all YouTube links...

    nevertheless from the arabic ryhtms I know that there are rhythms which are called "big" or "small" and they are basically the same but have some little differences.I thought , maybe this could be also the explanation for the different zeibekiko rhythms and I was searching via Google and I found this page:

    http://mediterraneanpalimpsest.wordp...etika-rhythms/

    scroll a little bit down, and they have samples for 3 style, one sample is the "maklosada sou lapoun"

  9. #9
    Ange ou Demon Amethystos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Halitsky View Post
    And so I ask you and Duffy: EVEN if you think all of the above is crazy, do you at least agree that the beats are accented very differently in

    Χωρίσαμε ένα δειλινό or Τρελοκόριτσο
    versus
    τα ματοκλαδα σου λαμπουν
    versus
    Το ζεϊμπέκικο της Ευδοκίας

    even though they're all zeibekiko's?

    Or to put this another way, can you yourself clap to τα ματοκλαδα σου λαμπουν in the same "syncopated" way you can to Χωρίσαμε ένα δειλινό or Τρελοκόριτσο or Το ζεϊμπέκικο της Ευδοκίας:

    DUM-da da-DUM DUM followed immediately by DUM-da da-DUM DUM DUM

    Try it - I think you'll find it's very difficult.


    Quote Originally Posted by Duffy Dack View Post
    That's the reason that the Bithikotsis made it slower (i can dance this cut and is my favorite)
    According to this -> http://kariatida62.blogspot.gr/2009/...g-post_11.html

    ""Difference is that zebekiko is being played slower than karsilamas,

    on a 9/4 tempo rather than 9/8.

    Two rhythms are getting close,

    a 9/4 allegro zebekiko will have

    the same tempo as a 9/8 adagio karsilamas"


    "Zebekikos are close neighbors to Karsilamas.

    Perhaps nobody can define where zebekiko ends and karsilamas begins"
    "
    "Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to?
    You will never find that life for which you are looking.
    When the gods created man they allotted to him death,
    but life they retained in their own keeping"

  10. #10
    Senior Member David Halitsky's Avatar
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    Tahira - as our friend and mentor Amethystos would say, "That's great information!" Thank you so much for finding it and posting it, particular since it has the rhythms in standard tablature (I can read that stuff, and it will tell me exactly what things are supposed to sound like.)

  11. #11
    Senior Member David Halitsky's Avatar
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    Hey Amethystos - you da best! What you found tells me I wasn't imagining things completely. Do you know the English expression "sanity check"? If so, you'll know what I mean when I say that your post was a great sanity check for me. (And fortunately, I seem to have passed it.)

    Also, I'm happy to tell you that when I went looking for the original of this:

    "Perhaps nobody can define where zebekiko ends and karsilamas begins"

    I was able to spot it right away:

    "Ισως κανείς δεν μπορεί να καθορίσει πού τελειώνει το Ζεϊμπέκικο και πού αρχίζει ο Καρσιλαμάς"." (Yes - I actuallly did remember
    πού, τελειώνει, and αρχίζει.)

    So apparently, I can still make some use of the three years of Greek I had in college. Who knows, maybe if I keep hanging out here with you and Dack, I'll be a fluent speaker before Charon gives me a seat on his ferry.

  12. #12
    Senior Member David Halitsky's Avatar
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    Here's another really beautiful zeibekiko where the zeibekiko rhythm is played pretty much like it's played in τα ματοκλαδα σου λαμπουν:

    Η ζωή μου όλη - 1974
    http://www.stixoi.info/stixoi.php?in...ls&song_id=766
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_3G2VvzYSI

    It's three slow beats followed by three quick beats, just like in Markos' song:

    ONE (two) ONE (two) ONE (two) one two three

    or

    1/4 1/4 1/4 1/8 1/8 1/8 = 3/4 + 3/8 = 6/8 + 3/8 = 9/8.

    I tell you what, Duffy - if I could dance a step (which I can't), this song Η ζωή μου όλη is the one that would get me up out of my chair. What a terrific song - music and lyrics both. Can you still dance the way you used to be able to? I would love to see a cut of someone dancing to this song.

    Edited post to add this zeibekiko also (rhythm works the same way):
    Μη μου μιλάς με χείλη που καίνε - 1981
    http://www.stixoi.info/stixoi.php?in...&song_id=23801
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WZa1ERwhsQ
    Last edited by David Halitsky; 12-20-2014 at 12:21 AM.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Tahira's Avatar
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    "My" song would be this one

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtgOVKs-1b0

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tahira View Post
    This is the original version (better i think)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AQq46q0h68

    Sag mir, wo sie Herzen verkaufen, damit ich dir eines davon kaufe
    sag mir, wo sie Feuden verkaufen, damit ich dir zwei davon kaufe
    sag mir, wo sie Seelen verkaufen, damit ich dir eine davon kaufe
    wo sie Adlerschwingen verkaufen, damit ich dir zwei davon kaufe

    Ich mchte, dass du zwei Herzen hast,
    damit du die Welt doppelt liebst,
    ich mchte, dass du zwei Seelen hast,
    gefllt mit Minze,
    ich mchte, dass du ein Adler bist

    Sag mir, wo sie Herzen verkaufen, damit ich dir eines davon kaufe
    sag mir, wo sie Feuden verkaufen, damit ich dir zwei davon kaufe
    sag mir, wo sie Seelen verkaufen, damit ich dir eine davon kaufe
    wo sie Adlerschwingen verkaufen, damit ich dir zwei davon kaufe

    Ich mchte, dass du ein Adler bist,
    damit du hoch in den Schlupfwinkel fliegst,
    dein Wein das Licht der Sonne ist,
    und dass du den Sternen einschenkst,
    ich mchte, dass du ein Adler bist

    This is the big song and zeibekiko that "always get me up out of my chair"



    Κάθε ηλιοβασίλεμα / every sunset

    when the night comes
    and gets the sweetness of the afternoon
    they slaughter deeply my heart
    the pains of my lonelyness

    sad dusk
    Never gets dark
    for those who live alone

    every sunset
    i don't know what bothers me
    complaint gets me
    and my heart cries

    sad dusk
    Never gets dark
    for those who live alone
    Last edited by Duffy Dack; 12-20-2014 at 07:50 AM.
    Αν υπάρχει κάτι που δεν χρειάζεται την πλειοψηφία για να είναι σωστό, αυτό είναι η ανθρώπινη συνείδηση.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Tahira's Avatar
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    This one is very nice, too!


    Bakc to the Mitropanos song, can you write dwon the sentence (in greek) when he sings

    Thelo na exis dio psyches
    gemato me......?

    I think there might a mistake in the german Translation. The german Translation says "I would like you to have 2 souls filled with mint"
    Is this right?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tahira View Post
    This one is very nice, too!


    Bakc to the Mitropanos song, can you write dwon the sentence (in greek) when he sings

    Thelo na exis dio psyches
    gemato me......?

    I think there might a mistake in the german Translation. The german Translation says "I would like you to have 2 souls filled with mint"
    Is this right?


    "Thelo na exis dio psyches
    gemates na 'ne or (me) diosmo / spearmint"


    rhymes with...cosmos / diosmos
    Αν υπάρχει κάτι που δεν χρειάζεται την πλειοψηφία για να είναι σωστό, αυτό είναι η ανθρώπινη συνείδηση.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Tahira's Avatar
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    Ah! Ok, so everything is right.
    Thank you !

  18. #18
    Senior Member David Halitsky's Avatar
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    OK - question for Amethystos, Duffy, and Tahira:

    To me, THIS very famous song IS a true Greek karsilima, NOT a fast zeibekiko:

    Τι να φταίει - 1968
    http://www.stixoi.info/stixoi.php?in...s&song_id=5890
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pq88G3xCrU
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAeRzRTG27k

    Do you agree?

  19. #19
    Senior Member Tahira's Avatar
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    I do not dare to give a definite statement. If you clap it, it's like a Karsilima, DUM DUM DUM tak tak tak; but I wouldn't have recognized it right a way.
    It's quite quick.

  20. #20
    Senior Member David Halitsky's Avatar
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    I think the only reason you didn't recognize the beat right away is because the song does not have the usual "Turkish" flavor of a karsilama, and you're not used to thinking of songs as karsilama's if they DON'T have that Turkish flavor.

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