Song similar to Eleftheriou's one

It's odd, Amethystos.

Eleftheriou's lyrics for the song "Στων αγγέλων τα μπουζούκια" reminded me of a poem I wrote (in English) back in 1967 when I was 19. (I had just started going to the clubs at that time ...)

In Greek, I think the first verse of the poem would be like this:

Μπουζουκτζής

Απόψε, όπως κάθε βράδυ,
θα καρφώσει τα δάχτυλά
του στο μπουζούκι του.
Όπως ο Χριστός,
σταυρώθηκε για εμάς.

Do you understand the "image" ("metaphor") here?

If so, is the actual Greek OK? Or are there mistakes in it? Or better way to phrase something idiomatically?

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

It's odd, Amethystos.

Eleftheriou's lyrics for this song reminded me of a poem I wrote (in English) back in 1967 when I was 19. (I had just started going to the clubs at that time ...)

In Greek, I think the first verse of the poem would be like this:

Μπουζουκτζής

Απόψε, όπως κάθε βράδυ,
θα καρφώσει τα δάχτυλά
του στο μπουζούκι του.
Όπως ο Χριστός,
σταυρώθηκε για εμάς.

Do you understand the "image" ("metaphor") here?

If so, is the actual Greek OK? Or are there mistakes in it? Or better way to phrase something idiomatically?

Interesting idea ; but it would have been better if you provided English text.

Cause the θα "καρφώσει τα δάχτυλά του στο μπουζούκι" doesn't fit in a Greek's mind.

It makes it too f@cking "pompous" for no reason. (excuse my lang!)

Thanks for the input - let me think about it.

The basic idea is that the Μπουζουκτζής takes our sorrows upon himself (by putting them into his music), like Christ took our sins upon himself.

Is that an "image" that a Greek would understand? Or is it still too pompous for your taste?

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

Thanks for the input - let me think about it.

The basic idea is that the Μπουζουκτζής takes our sorrows upon himself (by putting them into his music), like Christ took our sins upon himself.

Is that an "image" that a Greek would understand? Or is it still too pompous for your taste?

I had already realized the idea, the thing is that "nailing a person's hands on bouzouki" is not a proper metaphor for a Greek to follow.

OK thanks - if the idea itself is OK, then I will think about a better metaphor more suited to Greek culture itself ...

OK Amethystos - how about this way, without any fancy "metaphor" at all (just let the parallel speak for itself):

Μπουζουκτζής

Απόψε, όπως κάθε βράδυ,
τα χέρια του θα φέρει
το βάρος των θλίψεων μας,
όπως και τα χέρια του Χριστού
το βάρος των αμαρτιών μας

Is that more natural to the Greek mind?

Duffy or Amethystos - I forgot to ask:

Is φέρει the best verb here? I know it can mean "bring" OR "bear", and I want to make sure the sense is understood to be "bear", as in the English idiom "bear the weight".

Is φέρει the best verb for "bear" here, or is there a better choice?

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

Duffy or Amethystos - I forgot to ask:

Is φέρει the best verb here? I know it can mean "bring" OR "bear", and I want to make sure the sense is understood to be "bear", as in the English idiom "bear the weight".

Is φέρει the best verb for "bear" here, or is there a better choice?

It's better to use "στα χέρια θα σηκώσει" "he'll lift with his arms".
We're also not using plural with "θλίψη" in most cases.

So a more natural result could be the following:

Απόψε, όπως κάθε βράδυ,
στα χέρια θα σηκώσει
το βάρος της θλίψης μας,
όπως τα χέρια του Χριστού
το βάρος των αμαρτιών μας

But even if this is natural in Greek it doesn't sound lyrical .... so the idea is getting "lost in translation" (Excuse me for not being a poet btw)

Thanks for the review, Amethystos.

I'd like to keep working with you on this one (if you have the time and interest), but I'm wondering if you couldn't use your "administrator" magic to move the thread to the ATL "Poetry" forum.

The reason I'm asking this is that if the thread stays here, then the assumption is that we're working on the lyrics to a song.

And I don't see this piece that way - I see it as a stand-alone poem that maybe we can get to succeed in Greek (and maybe we can't).

And regarding this question (whether we can get this to succeed in Greek), I have two related questions to ask you:

1) does a Greek poem have to sound "lyrical", or are there respected Greek poems that don't sound particularly lyrical?

2) if a Greek read your last rewrite, would he understand the central image as quickly as you did (the parallel between the hands/arms of Christ and the hands/arms of the bouzouki player)?

If your answer to (1) is "No" and your answer to (2) is "Yes", then I would like to keep working on this with you (but as I said - in the Poetry forum).

On the other hand, if your answer to (1) is "Yes", OR, your answer to (2) is "No", then I will give up on this piece now.

Thanks as always for considering this matter.

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

Thanks for the review, Amethystos.

I'd like to keep working with you on this one (if you have the time and interest), but I'm wondering if you couldn't use your "administrator" magic to move the thread to the ATL "Poetry" forum.

I can move it but let's talk about it first.

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

The reason I'm asking this is that if the thread stays here, then the assumption is that we're working on the lyrics to a song.

And I don't see this piece that way - I see it as a stand-alone poem that maybe we can get to succeed in Greek (and maybe we can't).

Interesting way of thinking, nice challenge.

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

And regarding this question (whether we can get this to succeed in Greek), I have two related questions to ask you:

1) does a Greek poem have to sound "lyrical", or are there respected Greek poems that don't sound particularly lyrical?

"I don't know"
Excuse me but every time I say this phrase I feel so free!

You see I'm not a fan of poetry.
For example, I had no idea about this -> http://www.allthelyrics.com/forum/sh...=1#post1036724
I once tried to read Elitis' "Open papers", a book that is NOT poetry, and I got buffed after the first 130 pages (while trying to keep focused and keep notes over the plain text).
I've read some of his books though to have an idea of how his way of thinking was changing through the years.

To say that Elitis' poetry is "reader-friendly" is NOT an issue.
But is it lyrical? Yes it is. After all it's a matter of "craftsmanship of words".

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

2) if a Greek read your last rewrite, would he understand the central image as quickly as you did (the parallel between the hands/arms of Christ and the hands/arms of the bouzouki player)?

NOPE!

But I did NOT try to make it sound attractive, I only corrected the "rough edges" cause I hate when people change the work of others while not being subtle.

You know people like beautiful things, "beautiful-made" ones.
So a listener's ear would understand the idea but not as quickly as I did.

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

If your answer to (1) is "No" and your answer to (2) is "Yes", then I would like to keep working on this with you (but as I said - in the Poetry forum).

On the other hand, if your answer to (1) is "Yes", OR, your answer to (2) is "No", then I will give up on this piece now.

Thanks as always for considering this matter.

You don't have to thank me, we're here cause we're enjoying what we're doing.

OK - let's leave the thread here for the moment, while I see what outcome results from an experiment I am performing. This experiment involves, of course, our prospective "poem" as it stands as of your last edit:

Απόψε, όπως κάθε βράδυ,
στα χέρια θα σηκώσει
το βάρος της θλίψης μας,
όπως τα χέρια του Χριστού
το βάρος των αμαρτιών μας

And of course I will report the outcome of the experiment here when it is complete.****

But while we wait for the outcome of this experiment, let me say that I just realized something very nice about your use of the word "lift".

I think that what you may mean by using the word "lift" is that a burden (of our sins or of our sorrow) is lifted from us; in other words - we no longer have to bear a burden because it is being borne for us. In the case of the bouzoukist, when he expresses our sorrow in his playing, it is easier for us to bear the burden of this sorrow because he has, at least temporarily, lifted it from us. (And of course, in the case of the Christ, the relief is permanent, not temporary, so long as we choose to act in good faith.)

Is this "double-entendre" what you intended by choosing the idiom involving "lift"? Or were you just looking for a more idiomatic choice than "φέρει"?

Also, one more question - you wrote "lift with his arms", but χέρια means "hands", doesn't it? Or does it mean either, depending on context? Personally, of course, I would prefer it could be interpreted as "hands" in this context, because of the parallelism I originally saw between the role of the "hands" in the actual Crucifixion and the role of the hands in the playing of the instrument.

**** Edited in afterwards (6am Athens time 16 jan): Actually, Amethystos, the experiment is proceeding more rapidly than I thought it would ... I already have reason to believe that this poem may have merit that can be objectively appreciated by third-parties with no personal ties to us. I will know more on Monday.

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

I think that what you may mean by using the word "lift" is that a burden (of our sins or of our sorrow) is lifted from us; in other words - we no longer have to bear a burden because it is being borne for us. In the case of the bouzoukist, when he expresses our sorrow in his playing, it is easier for us to bear the burden of this sorrow because he has, at least temporarily, lifted it from us. (And of course, in the case of the Christ, the relief is permanent, not temporary, so long as we choose to act in good faith.)

Is this "double-entendre" what you intended by choosing the idiom involving "lift"? Or were you just looking for a more idiomatic choice than "φέρει"?

Exactly.

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

Also, one more question - you wrote "lift with his arms", but χέρια means "hands", doesn't it? Or does it mean either, depending on context? Personally, of course, I would prefer it could be interpreted as "hands" in this context, because of the parallelism I originally saw between the role of the "hands" in the actual Crucifixion and the role of the hands in the playing of the instrument.

Yes χέρια means hands.
I believe there's no other suitable word in Greek for using in such a context.
I used "arms" cause I didn't think that there was a great difference in English.

You wrote:

"Yes χέρια means hands.
I believe there's no other suitable word in Greek for using in such a context.
I used "arms" cause I didn't think that there was a great difference in English"

No - it must be "hands" in English also, because of the critical role which "hands" play in both the Crucifxion and the actual playing of the instrument. The nails did not pass thru His arms, but thru His palms, and of course one plays the bouzouki (or guitar or baglama or whatever) with one's hands, not one's arms.

Note also that this "reading" of the meaning of "hands" in the poem does not eliminate the other "reading" of the poem in which your choice of the verb "lift" is so important.

BOTH readings exist simultaneously and will be recognized and appreciated by a sufficiently sensitive reader. This is as it should be in a poem - one makes a choice of words that can be interpreted in several different ways, but the interpretations are completely compatible, and in fact amplify or compliment one another, like the harmonics of a note in music.

By the way, if my experiment succeeds, you may have to give up your anonymity if you want credit for your role in shaping the poem ... if you insist on keeping your anonymity, then I guess credit would have to go to "Amethystos", with a link to your home page ...

Απόψε, όπως κάθε βράδυ,
στα χέρια θα σηκώσει
το βάρος της θλίψης μας,
όπως τα χέρια του Χριστού
το βάρος των αμαρτιών μας

Tonight, like every night,
he will get in his hands
the burden of our sorrow,
like the hands of Christ
the weight of our sins

I believe that this is the actual meaning of the poem,
when he is playing (like every night) the burden - of our souls - is becoming lighter untill it disappears.

Yes, that's the meaning ... thank you Duffy.

But in English, if you want to use a different verb than "lift" (the verb which Amethystos used), then I personally think "take up in" is better idiomatic English than "get":

Tonight, like every night,
he will take up in his hands

Hi David.

About our discussion:

Every time someone writes a useful post like a translation (not an automated one... ) it's useful to encourage him by pressing the "Thanks" button. So you don't have to thank me.

Every effort of all our current and past members, to help each other by translating songs or identifying songs is visible to all search engines for the future readers. We are/were all volunteers, take a quick look at this -> http://www.allthelyrics.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=120795
Of course since the data of our work are free, they can be used wherever/whenever is needed.

Every user is able to edit his own posts, and I can assure you that I will delete every post of yours you want me to but NOT mine or of any other user.

I completely understand your position regarding thread or post deletion, Amethystos, and have no problem with it.

I made my suggestion to you concerning deletion of the thread because I am used to working in on-line "poetry workshops" or "poetry boards".

Even though everyone participates "for free" in such workshops or boards (as they do here), it is still common practice to delete a thread containing a poem that has been accepted for publication by a poetry journal (simply out of courtesy to the journal.)

But since AllTheLyrics is not really a "poetry workshop" or "poetry board", I think you are correct to point out that thread-deletion is probably inappropriate here.

Therefore, if Annamarie decides to acccept OUR poem, I will make her aware of the existence of this thread, and she can decide whether or not she has to reverse her decision simply because the poem has already appeared on-line.

That leaves the question of your anonymity - if OUR poem is accepted, what name do you wish to use as a co-author? Do you want to use "Amethystos" as a "nom de plume", or will you be willing to use your real name?

Of course, you don't have to decide this yet, since the poem has not yet been accepted. But if it is accepted, I think you'll have to make this decision, since I will not permit the poem to be published with myself as sole author. You improved my 2nd draft (the draft in which I used φέρει) by suggesting the key line in Greek:

στα χέρια θα σηκώσει

and in my opinion, this makes you a co-author ...

Now, if the poem were longer than just five lines, it could be argued that your suggestion was in the capacity of "editor", rather than "co-author".

But since the poem is so short, your contribution really must count as the contribution of a co-author, not an editor (at least in my personal opinion.)

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

I completely understand your position regarding thread or post deletion, Amethystos, and have no problem with it.

I made my suggestion to you concerning deletion of the thread because I am used to working in on-line "poetry workshops" or "poetry boards".

Even though everyone participates "for free" in such workshops or boards (as they do here), it is still common practice to delete a thread containing a poem that has been accepted for publication by a poetry journal (simply out of courtesy to the journal.)

But since AllTheLyrics is not really a "poetry workshop" or "poetry board", I think you are correct to point out that thread-deletion is probably inappropriate here.

Therefore, if Annamarie decides to acccept OUR poem, I will make her aware of the existence of this thread, and she can decide whether or not she has to reverse her decision simply because the poem has already appeared on-line.

Thanks for your understanding.

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

That leaves the question of your anonymity - if OUR poem is accepted, what name do you wish to use as a co-author? Do you want to use "Amethystos" as a "nom de plume", or will you be willing to use your real name?

Amethystos works fine!

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

Of course, you don't have to decide this yet, since the poem has not yet been accepted. But if it is accepted, I think you'll have to make this decision, since I will not permit the poem to be published with myself as sole author. You improved my 2nd draft (with the verb φέρει) by suggesting the key line in Greek:

στα χέρια θα σηκώσει

and in my opinion, this makes you a co-author ...

Now, if the poem were longer than just five lines, it could be argued that your suggestion was in the capacity of "editor", rather than "co-author".

But since the poem is so short, your contribution really must count as the contribution of a co-author, not an editor (at least in my personal opinion.)

I practically added nothing to these lyrics but thanks for expressing your thoughts and for all the infos my friend.
All future writers-lyricists-poets could find useful your inside-words of experience.

The submission is still active, Amethystos - it's just been delayed due to internal communications at the journal.

This doesn't mean the poem will eventually get accepted - it just means it hasn't been rejected yet!!!

Amethystos -

I am very pleased to tell you that the poem has been accepted by the journal "Voices of Hellenism":

http://www.voicesofhellenism.org/

So, I have made the editor (Annamarie) aware of this thread, and it will now be her decision whether she is still willing to publish even though this thread cannot be deleted.

Also, I have asked her if you could be a co-author even though you would have to use your nom-de-plume "Amethystos".