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  1. #41
    Senior Member jandros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlada View Post
    Did I understand that USA keeps territorial integrity of Georgia?!
    What about TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY OF SERBIA?....
    Vlada, I very much agree with you very strongly in general, and your concern is about 10 times more complicated than Russia/Georgia. And please, also remember, the United Nations is a lot more involved than the the U.S. itself. And I'll even say that it was a former president (if any) who was originally involved, at the beginning of all of that. But otherwise, I don't like it that there are still 7500 UN "peacekeepers" in your area ... why is that, I wonder? ... I don't know. I don't even want to know ... not to be mean, it's just that it's something that needs to resolved in some kind of rational and peaceful way, by all of the people and governments involved, but pesonally, I don't see how it will ever happen.... ...

    U.S.: Just for the record, more than 130 countries of the world are represented in the United States, and more than 20 languages are considered to be "main" languages, and all of the religions of the world are represented here. Of course there are always bad reports about problems, but we don't need to have a police state for the purpose of keeping national sovereignty and order, even though everyone has freedom to do or say whatever they want to do or say. Somehow, it works, and everyone's liberties are guaranteed or protected, for the most part, despite whatever the News people might want others to believe.

    My own friend in Russia asked me one time, what do I think about Putin or Medvedev or the last elections in Russia? ... I try to be optimistic ... and even when things look really bad ... because I'm old enough that I've seen a lot of problems come and go. Sometimes there is not a good solution, as in Serbia and border areas, and there are continuing problems, serious problems, but that does not mean that the U.S. or anyone else will invade and occupy and try to own the world.....

    In Georgia, one man called the U.S.Hitlerite Nazis .... but about 10 other Georgians pulled him away and hushed him, and I was even afraid they might beat the old guy.

    Everyone has his or her own opinion, and there are always disagreeements about who is right or wrong, but we don't have to yell and scream and shoot at each other. I just hope that the dispute between Georgia and Russia will calm down soon, the shooting and bombing will stop, for everyone's sake and peace of mind, even if it can't be resolved completely.

  2. #42
    Senior Member jandros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dya View Post
    @Jandros:

    I'll say it again, before going for a nap :
    None of the International Organisations has considered South Ossetia to be something else than it is: a region of Georgia. Not a region of Russia situated in Georgia!

    Russia may have issued Russian passports to many peole from its former territories. Russia may still consider its former territories to be rightfully "hers", the Soviet Union Dream may be still alive, BUT the current map of the world says something else.
    Yes, I do agree with you Dya! Only North Ossetia is part of Russia. South Ossetia is a break-away province of Georgia. Yes, absolutely! I think you've said a lot more, and with a lot more accuracy and detail, than anyone else so far. If there is a complete political analysis in this conversation, it's you!

  3. #43
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    Thank you! All I tried to do was to present the situation. And Lollipop was right: when you're close to it, you know how things are. The information comes at first hand.

    I didn't try to impose an opinion. I mainly tried to answer questions, and most of the questions had to do with facts (like who attacked who and so on).


  4. #44
    Senior Member jandros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dya View Post
    ...Russia may have issued Russian passports to many peole from its former territories. Russia may still consider its former territories to be rightfully "hers", the Soviet Union Dream may be still alive, BUT the current map of the world says something else.
    Once again I agree.... my Polish friend always brings that "dream" into a conversation, because for him and for his mother, who still lives in Poland, it's still a big source of concern. And the Czech Republic ... they will never forget 1968? ..... so, how does this situation with Georgia appear, to any country in the CIS, 19 former "territories" of the USSR?

    Anyway, I hope you had a good nap!

  5. #45
    Senior Member jandros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dya View Post
    The information comes at first hand....I didn't try to impose an opinion....
    But of course you also have an opinion! And maybe you have an even more valuable or meaningful opinion than most. For myself, I would really like to know how you feel about it. But I'm not asking, it's not a question, it's just an idle thought

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by jandros View Post
    ..... so, how does this situation with Georgia appear, to any country in the CIS, 19 former "territories" of the USSR?
    Not very comfortable, I assume

    Quote Originally Posted by jandros View Post
    Anyway, I hope you had a good nap!
    I didn't get the chance yet, cause I was busy talking politics NOW, I'm going for my nap!!

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by jandros View Post
    But of course you also have an opinion! And maybe you have an even more valuable or meaningful opinion than most. For myself, I would really like to know how you feel about it. But I'm not asking, it's not a question, it's just an idle thought

    Of course I have an opinion. I'm a woman, I have opinions on everything!

    I will try to formulate it in a politically corect way a bit later (I really don't want this thread to be closed, so I need time to find a non-offensive way to express my opinion )

  8. #48
    Senior Member jandros's Avatar
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    Mmmm, I also need to apologize for bing off-topic or maybe being too forceful with my opinions. I do enjoy this conversation, as much as it can be "enjoyed" ... I just think that it's valuable and meaningful to share opinions and even feelings, even if we're not actually solving anything ... it's just good to communicate and to understand better. To quote an old euphemism, "No man (or woman) is an island". No one is ever alone in this world. And when a small pebble is dropped into the water, the ripples might cascade across the entire lake. Even if we (whoever) are not involved, the ripples will rock our boat.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Vlada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jandros View Post
    Everyone has his or her own opinion, and there are always disagreeements about who is right or wrong, but we don't have to yell and scream and shoot at each other. I just hope that the dispute between Georgia and Russia will calm down soon, the shooting and bombing will stop, for everyone's sake and peace of mind, even if it can't be resolved completely.
    I agree with that

  10. #50
    Senior Member Vlada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jandros View Post
    Vlada, I very much agree with you very strongly in general, and your concern is about 10 times more complicated than Russia/Georgia. And please, also remember, the United Nations is a lot more involved than the the U.S. itself. And I'll even say that it was a former president (if any) who was originally involved, at the beginning of all of that. But otherwise, I don't like it that there are still 7500 UN "peacekeepers" in your area ... why is that, I wonder? ... I don't know. I don't even want to know ... not to be mean, it's just that it's something that needs to resolved in some kind of rational and peaceful way, by all of the people and governments involved, but pesonally, I don't see how it will ever happen.... ...
    But don't agree with that. In Iraq maybe, but Serbia was attacked by USA 1999. And I was just a little boy who was watching cartoons all the time, to not hear the bombs... And now they are preaching something. But I don't want to be some kind of nazi, the war is always very bad thing and everybody is making mistakes and bad things in that time... But USA is making the same mistakes all the time. I hope your new president will be better And I think only Osetians know the real true about that.

  11. #51
    Senior Member jandros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlada View Post
    ...I support Russia in almost everything, but I'm for territorial integrity first of all. But USA's role in this is very important. This woudn't be happening that they have the same politics for all regions and contries. And not only them, most of EU countries also... (Sorry for my grammatical mistakes )
    I also support some kind of "new ideology" for Russia, for the people and for the government, because of course a government can either control or enable people. And even the U.S. has given billions of dollars in economic aid to Russia ... not just the U.N., but also the U.S. on its own ... when the country was on the verge of collapsing completely. That was in the mid-1990's. So, we also help a traditional 'enemy'? ... I hate that word, but the sleeping bear? ... That is just food for thought, about whatever role the U.S. or any country might appear to play, if any, if ever. I say any country, because other countries of course are often involved in situations, but the U.S. is always the biggest and easiest target for criticism ..... we might as well just paint a big red bulls-eye in our national forehead or our flag .....

    But I think the word "politics" is over-used so often! Can't it simply be true that we honestly want to help each other sometimes? ... the U.S. has the means, and so we just do it, but usually, or I would sy always, by invitation. But some people will call it political manipulation ... but Myanmar was not about politics, even though it was politicized in the news to some degree. And the earthquake in China was not about politics. And the worldwide reaction to our 9/11 was not about politics, the incredible outpouring of sympathy and mutual grief was not about politics, it was about people. I'm not trying to play on emotions, just suggesting that sometimes it's just something very very simple, that nobody likes to see anyone else suffer.

    But Russia/Georgia is a situation that needs to be dealt with, as much as possible, by Russia and Georgia, but with pleading and urging and voices of reason from many other countries who are deeply concerned about the general situation, and especially about the possibility that it could become even bigger than Georgia. Of course that possibility is in everyone's mind....

    Anyway, I'm just glad that we can discuss something like this, and maybe, hopefully, learn a lot more about each other as we do it

  12. #52
    Senior Member Vlada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dya View Post
    Ok, Vlada, say it to get it off your soul: If nobody had acknowledged Kosovo, maybe, just maybe, South Ossetia, Abhazia and other regions wouldn't have had a precedent to follow. You don't need to say it to me: check the list of the countries who didn't recognized Kosovo's independence and you'll see that you don't have to convince me }}
    Yes I know that, my friend

  13. #53
    Senior Member Vlada's Avatar
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    And to end this story: I'm really opened mind, and love all the people and regions, but some things just couldn't be forgotten. And this discussion is to much for my knowledge of english

  14. #54
    Senior Member jandros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlada View Post
    ... but Serbia was attacked by USA 1999....
    But it "began" in 1993, not 1999 ....but again, every action was under the auspices of the U.N., not an independent or unilateral action. And President Clinton was a "peacenik", he was always afraid of antagonizing somebody. But very sincerely I just want to say, your situation is so incredibly complicated!!! ..... I think there will always be confusion and finger-pointing ... nobody will ever be "right" about what has happened in Serbia for the past 15 years, and I think it's a little hazardous, far too delicate, for us to even discuss it. I'm just terribly sorry about everything. I just hope, pesonally, that th situation Georgia does not go on for even a year, much less 10 or 20 years. I think we all just want to see an end to it, very very quickly, because it makes all of us very very nervous.

  15. #55
    Senior Member jandros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlada View Post
    And to end this story: I'm really opened mind, and love all the people and regions, but some things just couldn't be forgotten. And this discussion is to much for my knowledge of english
    Ok, peace, my friend Vlada! You can even have the last word if you want it, I won't respond

  16. #56
    Senior Member Vlada's Avatar
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    It didn't begin in 1993, because Kosovo is territory of Serbia, never been a country. At that time begans decomposition of Yugoslavia... And I think that action wasn't under auspices of the UN.
    But don't metter, better to end up with politics, my friend This is my last word

  17. #57
    Senior Member Música101's Avatar
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    I'm a little confused.

    How come when ever Russia bombs another country and takes over it. (Like in the USSR) It's okay. But when USA does something its so bad and everyone dislikes it.

    Sorry if I offended anyone. I just don't get it.

  18. #58
    Senior Member jandros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Música101 View Post
    I'm a little confused.

    How come when ever Russia bombs another country and takes over it. (Like in the USSR) It's okay. But when USA does something its so bad and everyone dislikes it.

    Sorry if I offended anyone. I just don't get it.
    A good and honest question is never offensive, don't even worry about it

    About confusion, as we would say in the U.S., "join the crowd" ... we're all confused about a lot of things.... there is never an easy answer for anything ... the world just goes around and around and around, day after day. We just do the best that we can do.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Música101 View Post
    How come when ever Russia bombs another country and takes over it. (Like in the USSR) It's okay. But when USA does something its so bad and everyone dislikes it.
    Musica, from the common people's point of view, it is NEVER ok when one country is bombed and innocent peole die. No matter who initiated it, no matter who continued it, no matter who else interferes. And I'm not talking about Georgia here, I'm talking about all armed conflicts all over the world, at various times.

    As far as I'm concerned, in modern times, people ellected and delegated to run countries should find other ways of resolving conflicts. I still hope for a world where every problem is solved at a round table instead of on the battle field. And I hoped that the more we advance, the smarter we'd get in order to find the best solutions.

    Unfortunately, my "fantasy" seems to have nothing in common with reality. The more we advance, the more elaborate weapons we leearn to use. And we seem to get farther and farther from that round table which apparently belongs to King Arthur's times rather than to the modern world....

    And in trying to answer your question as to why everybody is blaming USA, when doing something wrong but Russia "gets away with it".... trust me there are a lot of countries in whose eyes Russia will never be Snow-White, no matter what it does...

  20. #60
    Senior Member jandros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dya View Post
    ...it is NEVER ok when one country is bombed and innocent peole die... I still hope for a world where every problem is solved at a round table instead of on the battle field. And I hoped that the more we advance, the smarter we'd get in order to find the best solutions.

    Unfortunately, my "fantasy" seems to have nothing in common with reality.......
    ... and I just saw another news report ... regarding another former Soviet entity ... what is happening??? ..... rhetorical/pointless question, there is no answer yet.

    I share your fantasy Dya, although reality is always a bucket of ice-water in the face. But I believe it's good to hope for something better. I know it sounds stupid, but somebody needs to say it every now and then. So I applaud you for your hopes and desires! Just to say it.

    Did you ever have your nap???
    Last edited by jandros; 08-15-2008 at 09:54 AM. Reason: punctuation, for clarity

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