Learning Italian Language

Originally Posted by Angeliki

Bisognare and Avere=> To have
Cuocere and Cucinare => To cook
Iniziare and Cominciare => To begin/start

Yep, I'm a native speaker

The verb "bisognare" o ("abbisognare") is an impersonal verb, so it is used only in third singular person "bisogna" or with the auxiliar "avere":
(Io ho bisogno; Tu hai bisogno; Egli ha bisogno; Noi abbiamo bisogno; Voi avete bisogno; Essi hanno bisogno)

It means "to need", "it's necessary", "you must (do it...).."
It is followed by a noun (If you need "something") or by a verb in the infinite form (if you need to "do something").

"Bisogna saper perdere" - (you need to know how to lose/ you need to know that you can lose)
"Ho bisogno di qualcosa di forte" (I need a strong drink)
"Bisogna dirglielo subito!" (we must tell him at once)
"Hai bisogno di qualcosa?" (Do you need anything?)
"Avresti bisogno di un'auto più affidabile" (you would need a more reliable car)
Dimmi, abbiamo davvero bisogno di questo?" ("Tell me, do we really need this?")
"Bisogna prendere una decisione, prima o poi." (It is necessary to make a decision/ we must make a decision sooner or later)
--------

"Cuocere" and "Cucinare" can be both translated generally with "cook" but they're not exactly the same.
"Cuocere" has something to do with heat, means "to heat food". ("Cuocere al forno"- "oven-bake" or "cuocere al vapore" - "cook with steam").
"Sto cuocendo la torta nel forno" (I'm baking the cake)

"Cucinare" instead means also "to prepare a meal". You can also use "Preparare qualcosa - to prepare something".
"Mi piace cucinare" (I love cooking) but you don't say "mi piace cuocere"
"Sto cucinando /preparando la cena per i miei ospiti" (I'm cooking / preparing the dinner for my guests)

Example: you are preparing some roulades. When you take the meat, the eggs, the food relish and you mix them and then put them in the bake, following the recipe's steps you are preparing a meal, so "cucini/prepari degli involtini"
If you buy the roulades and just put them in the bake, you "cuoci gli involtini".

"Cuocere" can be transitive and intransitive, 'cucinare' can be only transitive.
You can say "sto cuocendo il pollo" o "il pollo sta cuocendo" but you can only say "sto cucinando il pollo". By saying "il pollo sta cucinando" you mean that a chicken is actually working in the kitchen.
---------------

"Iniziare" e "cominciare" have the same meaning. Maybe "iniziare" is a bit more "elegant" and cominciare a little more "colloquial", but that's all.

"Il film sta per cominciare/ iniziare" (the movie is about to begin)
" Non saprei proprio da dove cominciare/iniziare" (I wouldn't know where to start)

Originally Posted by Ligeia

Yep, I'm a native speaker

The verb "bisognare" o ("abbisognare") is an impersonal verb, so it is used only in third singular person "bisogna" or with the auxiliar "avere":
(Io ho bisogno; Tu hai bisogno; Egli ha bisogno; Noi abbiamo bisogno; Voi avete bisogno; Essi hanno bisogno)

It means "to need", "it's necessary", "you must (do it...).."
It is followed by a noun (If you need "something") or by a verb in the infinite form (if you need to "do something").

"Bisogna saper perdere" - (you need to know how to lose/ you need to know that you can lose)
"Ho bisogno di qualcosa di forte" (I need a strong drink)
"Bisogna dirglielo subito!" (we must tell him at once)
"Hai bisogno di qualcosa?" (Do you need anything?)
"Avresti bisogno di un'auto più affidabile" (you would need a more reliable car)
Dimmi, abbiamo davvero bisogno di questo?" ("Tell me, do we really need this?")
"Bisogna prendere una decisione, prima o poi." (It is necessary to make a decision/ we must make a decision sooner or later)
--------

"Cuocere" and "Cucinare" can be both translated generally with "cook" but they're not exactly the same.
"Cuocere" has something to do with heat, means "to heat food". ("Cuocere al forno"- "oven-bake" or "cuocere al vapore" - "cook with steam").
"Sto cuocendo la torta nel forno" (I'm baking the cake)

"Cucinare" instead means also "to prepare a meal". You can also use "Preparare qualcosa - to prepare something".
"Mi piace cucinare" (I love cooking) but you don't say "mi piace cuocere"
"Sto cucinando /preparando la cena per i miei ospiti" (I'm cooking / preparing the dinner for my guests)

Example: you are preparing some roulades. When you take the meat, the eggs, the food relish and you mix them and then put them in the bake, following the recipe's steps you are preparing a meal, so "cucini/prepari degli involtini"
If you buy the roulades and just put them in the bake, you "cuoci gli involtini".

"Cuocere" can be transitive and intransitive, 'cucinare' can be only transitive.
You can say "sto cuocendo il pollo" o "il pollo sta cuocendo" but you can only say "sto cucinando il pollo". By saying "il pollo sta cucinando" you mean that a chicken is actually working in the kitchen.
---------------

"Iniziare" e "cominciare" have the same meaning. Maybe "iniziare" is a bit more "elegant" and cominciare a little more "colloquial", but that's all.

"Il film sta per cominciare/ iniziare" (the movie is about to begin)
" Non saprei proprio da dove cominciare/iniziare" (I wouldn't know where to start)

Grazie dell'aiuto!

I have many more questions. I'll take them a day at a time

I guess my main question is, are there specific rules for past and future tense? I read through this thread and I didn't see any formal explanation about what makes things past, present, future. I was thinking there would be gereral rules to follow?

Take the following sentences for example:

1. I am speaking in Spanish. (currently, now)
2. I spoke in Spanish. (past)
3. I will speak in Spanish. (future)

I'm thinking the differences in sentence structure in Italian are going to be within the verbs and adjectives as well as the placement of words?


In Spanish the endings change, accents, and placement of words to create meaning of the sentence:

1. Hablando en Español. (currently, now)
2. Yo hablo' en Español. (past)
3. Yo hablare' en Español. (future)

Are there obvious differences like that?

Originally Posted by Angeliki

Grazie dell'aiuto!

I have many more questions. I'll take them a day at a time

I guess my main question is, are there specific rules for past and future tense? I read through this thread and I didn't see any formal explanation about what makes things past, present, future. I was thinking there would be gereral rules to follow?

Take the following sentences for example:
1. I am speaking in Spanish. (currently, now)
2. I spoke in Spanish. (past)
3. I will speak in Spanish. (future)

I'm thinking the differences in sentence structure in Italian are going to be within the verbs and adjectives as well as the placement of words?

In Spanish the endings change, accents, and placement of words to create meaning of the sentence:

1. Hablando en Español. (currently, now)
2. Yo hablo' en Español. (past)
3. Yo hablare' en Español. (future)

Are there obvious differences like that?

You're welcome!

Italian verbs are quite difficult and annoying, I know well how to use them but I've always hated grammar lessons!
Anyway, I'll try to help.
A verb indicates:
the subject: io, tu, lui/lei, noi, voi, loro,
the manners, (how the action happens): indicative (indicativo), subjunctive (congiuntivo) conditional (condizionale), imperative (imperativo), infinitive (infinito), gerund (gerundio), participle (participio).
The time (when the action happens): all the manner of the verbs have different tenses, simple and compound.
The form can be active transitive or intransitive, passive and reflexive

-Sto/stavo parlando spagnolo
As in spanish, the gerund usually adds "-ndo" at the end of the infinite form: "capire-capendo (understanding); sapere- sapendo (knowing); avere -avendo (having); essere-essendo (be)
-Parlai/ parlavo spagnolo
The past tenses are more complicated: there are imperfective (parlavo spagnolo), pluperfect (avevo parlato spagnolo), present perfect (ho parlato spagnolo), remote past (parlai spagnolo), past anterior (ebbi parlato spagnolo, not very common).
-Parlerò spagnolo
I don't know if you can take it as a grammar rule, but often in the simple future the 1st and the 3rd singular person have the accent on the last letter: (io) parlerò, (egli) parlerà; capirò-capirà; saprò, saprà; avrò-avrà; sarò-sarà.
The 2nd sing. person has an -ai at the end: parlerai, capirai, saprai, avrai sarai.

Maybe these links will help you more than i can with the verbs.
http://www.italianlanguageguide.com/italian/grammar/

http://www.uvm.edu/~cmazzoni/3gramma...ica/index.html

In italian the simple sentence structure is:
(Subject)+ verb+object
In the first phrase the personal pronoun can be omitted because the verb changes according to the subjects:
"(io) Guardo la gara in tv"- (I watch the race on tv)
"Olli guarda la gara in tv" In this case you need the subject.

The negative is: (subject)+non+verb+object
(Io) non guardo la gara in tv
Olli non guarda la gara in tv

As for the adjectives, it depends on the context, the kind of adjectives and how it sounds in italian. Usually they are placed after the noun ("è stata una giornata divertente"- It's been a funny day), but there might be exceptions.
for example: "è un bel quadro" (it's a nice painting) is better than "è un quadro bello" which sounds too childish.
But "è un libro interessante" (it's an interesting book) sounds better than "è un interessante libro", unless the phrase is "è un libro interessante sull'Irlanda" (It's an interesting book about Ireland)

Originally Posted by Ligeia

You're welcome!

Italian verbs are quite difficult and annoying, I know well how to use them but I've always hated grammar lessons!
Anyway, I'll try to help.
A verb indicates:
the subject: io, tu, lui/lei, noi, voi, loro,
the manners, (how the action happens): indicative (indicativo), subjunctive (congiuntivo) conditional (condizionale), imperative (imperativo), infinitive (infinito), gerund (gerundio), participle (participio).
The time (when the action happens): all the manner of the verbs have different tenses, simple and compound.
The form can be active transitive or intransitive, passive and reflexive

-Sto/stavo parlando spagnolo
As in spanish, the gerund usually adds "-ndo" at the end of the infinite form: "capire-capendo (understanding); sapere- sapendo (knowing); avere -avendo (having); essere-essendo (be)
-Parlai/ parlavo spagnolo
The past tenses are more complicated: there are imperfective (parlavo spagnolo), pluperfect (avevo parlato spagnolo), present perfect (ho parlato spagnolo), remote past (parlai spagnolo), past anterior (ebbi parlato spagnolo, not very common).
-Parlerò spagnolo
I don't know if you can take it as a grammar rule, but often in the simple future the 1st and the 3rd singular person have the accent on the last letter: (io) parlerò, (egli) parlerà; capirò-capirà; saprò, saprà; avrò-avrà; sarò-sarà.
The 2nd sing. person has an -ai at the end: parlerai, capirai, saprai, avrai sarai.

Maybe these links will help you more than i can with the verbs.
http://www.italianlanguageguide.com/italian/grammar/

http://www.uvm.edu/~cmazzoni/3gramma...ica/index.html

In italian the simple sentence structure is:
(Subject)+ verb+object
In the first phrase the personal pronoun can be omitted because the verb changes according to the subjects:
"(io) Guardo la gara in tv"- (I watch the race on tv)
"Olli guarda la gara in tv" In this case you need the subject.

The negative is: (subject)+non+verb+object
(Io) non guardo la gara in tv
Olli non guarda la gara in tv

As for the adjectives, it depends on the context, the kind of adjectives and how it sounds in italian. Usually they are placed after the noun ("è stata una giornata divertente"- It's been a funny day), but there might be exceptions.
for example: "è un bel quadro" (it's a nice painting) is better than "è un quadro bello" which sounds too childish.
But "è un libro interessante" (it's an interesting book) sounds better than "è un interessante libro", unless the phrase is "è un libro interessante sull'Irlanda" (It's an interesting book about Ireland)

Thank you soooo much! I think I"m done with questions for now. I'm going to study what I just learned first. I dont' want to get ahead of myself. A MILLION THANK YOUS!!!!

Btw, if you can refer to the Spanish language in order to do explanations, that would be just fine. Even Greek

And am I the only person on ATL right now trying to learn this beautiful language???

Is the lack of interest because the verbs in italian are really "difficult and annoying"? lol jk

An Italian verb is reflexive when the action carried out by the subject is performed on the same subject.

Most of the times when a reflexive verb is used nonreflexively it changes meaning.

These are two things I could think of, maybe the native speakers can give some additional explanations.

Well---reflexive verbs are quite tricky and complicated to explain, and grammar lessons are only distant memories, but I'll give a try...

In your case "vivere" means "to live" "viversi" doesn't exist, except maybe in poetical situations.
You say "Ho vissuto una bella esperienza" not "mi sono vissuta" ("I've lived a beautiful experience"). Maybe you mean "far vivere" (to make live). "Mi hai fatto vivere una bella esperienza" (You made me live a beautiful experience)
"Esercitarsi" means "to practise, to train oneself". Ex:"Dovresti esercitati un po' di più!" ("you should practise a little more")
"Esercitare" can mean to train, to exert, practise a profession.
Ex."Bisogna esercitare la mente" "You must train your mind" (even if in this cases "allenare" sounds better)
"Ho esercitato un mio legittimo diritto" ("I've exerted a legitimate right")

Reflexive verbs are part of the pronominal verbs' group. Basically you can recognize them from the use of the pronominal particles"mi, ti, si, ci, vi"." The auxiliar for the compound tense is "to be".

They are divided in various groups.
1) Riflessivo proprio. This is when the pronominal particle is the direct object, and it can be replaced with "me stesso, te stesso, lui/lei stesso/a, noi stessi, voi stessi" (myself, yourself, him/herself, ourselves, yourselves)
Don't know if it's a grammar rule, but some of them can be used both as reflexive verbs or not: Lavare-lavarsi ("Lavo la mia auto"-"mi lavo": I wash my car- I wash myself), Pettinare-pettinarsi (to comb), confermare-confermarsi (to confirm-to proclaim/confirm oneself), vestire-vestirsi (to dress- to dress oneself), alzare-alzarsi (to lift, raise-to stand up, to get up)

Examples:
"Forse sarebbe meglio toglierci di mezzo" (forse sarebbe meglio togliere di mezzo noi stessi. "maybe we'd better get out of the way")
" Non ti sei ancora vestito?" ("non hai ancora vestito te stesso?" "aren't you ready yet?")
"Loeb si è confermato campione ancora una volta" (Loeb ha confermato se stesso campione..." - "Loeb has proclaimed himself champions once again")

2) Riflessivo reciproco When the particle indicates a reciprocal action. It's the case of verbs like "amarsi" (to love), "abbracciarsi"(to embrace), "baciarsi" (To kiss), "incontrarsi" (to meet), "salutarsi"(to greet), "separarsi" (to separate), odiarsi (to hate), sopportarsi (to stand). Of course, you can use them as reflexive: "si odiano" (they hate each other) or not: "odio quella canzone" (I hate that song!)

"Ci siamo incontrati ieri e ci siamo salutati" (We've met -each other- yesterday and we've greeted -each other-")
"Jenny e Sarah non si sopportano" ("Jenny and Sarah can't stand each other")
"Ci vediamo quest'estate" (We'll see -each other- this summer)

3) Riflessivo apparente. When the particle isn't a direct object but usually answers to the question "to who?"

"Ci siamo tolti la giacca" (we took off our jackets", "we took off the jacket to ourselves"; it answers to the question "to whom we've took off the jacket?")
"Mi sono slogata la caviglia" (I've sprained my ankle" - "I've sprained the ankle to myself")
"Nico si prepara la colazione" ("Nico prepares his breakfast"; Nico is preparing breakfast to himself, for himself)

4) Riflessivo pronominale. It's when the verb can't be conjugated without the reflexive particle. They are intransitive and can't be turned to transitive.
For example the verb "vergognarsi" (be ashamed). You can say "mi vergogno di..." (I'm ashamed of...) or at least "faccio vergognare qualcuno di qualcosa" (I make someone feel ashamed of something) but never "io vergogno".
Another example "accorgersi. (to realize, to notice)" "Non ti sei nemmeno accorto di lui!" (you didn't even noticed him")
"Solo adesso mi sono accorta di aver dimenticato le chiavi" (Only now I've realized that I've forgotten my keys)

Other verbs are: accanirsi (to persist, to hammer away) , adirarsi (to get irate) ,addormentarsi (to fall asleep), ammalarsi (to get sick), arrabbiarsi (to get angry), arrampicarsi (to climb), arrendersi (to surrender), astenersi (to abstain), avvalersi (to avail oneself of), destreggiarsi (to manoeuvre), impadronirsi (to take possession of), infortunarsi (to get injured), inginocchiarsi (to knee), invaghirsi (to take a fancy to), lagnarsi (to moan, to complain), ostinarsi (to persist) , pavoneggiarsi (to strut), pentirsi (to regret) ribellarsi (to rise against), rifugiarsi (to take refuge), scervellarsi (to rack one's brain), schermirsi (to protect oneself), suicidarsi (kill oneself)


One more little note:
It's quite common to use the reflexive particles just as intensifier. If the phrase can work even without the particles then the verb it's not reflexive.

"Si è mangiato tutta la torta!" has the same meaning of "Ha mangiato tutta la torta!" ("he ate the whole cake")
"sabato sera ci siamo guardati Real-Barcelona" it's the same as"sabato sera abbiamo guardato Real-Barcelona" (Saturday evening we've watched real-barcelona")
"mi fumo una sigaretta e poi mi bevo una birra" can be "Fumo una sigaretta e poi bevo una birra" (I smoke a cigarette and then I'll have a beer")

Originally Posted by Leyla123

Thank you very much for your explanation!

Oh, maybe that's the reason why I get confused. I have read somewhere that "viversi" meant "to live (in a place)". But I couldn't understand why you couldn't just use "vivere".

You're welcome!

I did a little research on "viversi" and I've seen that you can find it in some lyrics or in cheap articles about relationship or how to love yourself, something like "Vorrei viverti" (i'd like to live you") or "viversi in una relazione" ("living yourself in a relationship", as you see they could've used many other verbs that would've been better than "viversi")

Perhaps you mean "viverci" but it's not reflexive, it means "to live there/with someone" but you need an object.
Ex. "Vivo a New York" "A noi piacerebbe molto viverci"
("I live in N.Y." "We would love to live there".) .
The particle "ci" substitutes the object (New York); it doesn't mean that we'd love to live ourself, but that we'd love to live in NY. It's used in order to avoid to repeat again the object, you could say: "a noi piacerebbe molto vivere a NY"

"Heikki vive con tre gatti" "io non potrei mai viverci, sono allergico"
(Heikki lives with three cats" "I could never live with them, I'm allergic")
As you see "viverci" doesn't change according to the subject, it's not "vivermi".
In this case means that you could never live with the cats. "Non potrei mai vivere con tre gatti".

Originally Posted by Leyla123

Oh, but I do understand the difference between '...si' en '...ci'. I would not confuse those two.
I remember where I read 'viversi': it's a simple page on Wikipedia that got me confused: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/viversi

I usually use wikitionary but that is completely wrong!
First- if it's reflexive they should have written "to live yourself in a place"! Second- how can a verb that means "to live in a place" be reflexive?
How do they use it: "I live myself in this town"?!

Originally Posted by Leyla123

LOL.
By the way, does the verb 'doversi' exist? Wiktionary says it means:
- To have to do something
- To be obliged
Or can you give an example of a sentence in which you should use "doversi" (instead of just using "dovere")?

I think that "doversi"'s definition is not so bad, but it's the infinitive tense.
"Dovere" is a modal verb along with "potere" (can) and "volere" (want). As in english it is always followed by another verb, except in answers.
"E così hai deciso di rimanere, eh?" "Ho dovuto!"
(And so you decided to stay, eh?! "I had to!")

"Non avrei dovuto arrabbiarmi tanto" (or "non mi sarei dovuta arrabbiare tanto")
("I shouldn't get -myself- so angry") the verb used is "doversi arrabbiare"

"Ti devi muovere (devi muoverti), il treno non ci aspetta!"
("You must hurry up, the train doesn't wait for us") "doversi muovere"

"Non è ancora finita, non ci dobbiamo rassegnare ( non dobbiamo rassegnarci).
("It is not over yet, we must not resign ourselves") "doversi rassegnare"

"Perchè mi dovrei alzare (or "dovrei alzarmi")? Piove e non devo andare da nessuna parte.
(Why should i get up? it's raining and i don't have to go anywhere!) "doversi alzare"

hi!!!!
I'm Bibabella...
I'm Italian, and I understand English.....
but I'm not perfect at speaking and writing it............
so, sorry for the errors....


however........
I met a Russian boy in England, last year,... and I taught him my language (speaking English and French xD) .... so.... if you need help, here I am...




it's important if you want to speak Italian......:

have to /must = dovere :
----> I have to go.../say.../do... ----> (io) devo andare/dire.../fare...
-----> I must go.../say.../do... -----> (io) devo andare.../dire.../fare...

Hi ! I'm Filippo, I'm italian too, and i understand and speak english very well (and french and spanish). Languages are my specialty, so if you need any help...here I am!

I noticed that english speakers mostly have difficulties in those things they're not used to, like conjugating verbs, masc./fem. , plurals and articles (for them it's just _S and THE!!). I guess the best way to learn the use of verbs is looking at a HUGE amount of examples!!

My advice: - don't forget to READ a lot (it provides you more examples for verbs, you can enrich your personal dictionary and you can learn the written italian.)
- try to watch movies (with subs, of course) and tv shows maybe, to get examples of spoken italian (we have a lot of strange habits in speaking, mostly due to our local dialects)!! Maybe it could be better with dubbed movies, 'cause in those ones dubbers use THE standard (correct) italian (the one so few people use!)

If you got something to ask, FIRE AWAY at will!

CIAO

Originally Posted by Leyla123

Ha, lots of people that want to help!
@Luckaed I'm not a native English speaker, ... so I don't know if it's only a problem for English speakers.

Hi Leyla! Of course I was referring to english speakers 'cause i don't have as much experience with other languages speakers as I have with english. And i was also referring to the fact that english speakers are much less used to conjugate verbs, genre, plurals, articles... than french, spanish, portuguese people, romanians, italians.....etc.. (romance languages - but not only!).
BY THE WAY, where are you from?

I'm glad someone finally replied, i started thinking this forum was "dead"!

CIAOOO

@Leyla Piacere di conoscerti! Se parli olandese allora ci credo che è dura imparare l'italiano, sono 2 lingue così differenti!!! però stai facendo un ottimo lavoro, brava! CHiedimi pure per qualsiasi cosa d'italiano!

Ciao ciao

ehi luckaed........ le lingue sono la mia specialità secondo molti....ma faccio l'errore di studiarne troppe e troppo diverse tutte insieme....per ora sono intestardita con inglese, francese e finlandese...e non trascuro il mio amato italiano, né il latino.........come vedi la mia è una passione perchè il finlandese non mi servirebbe quasi a nulla: lo parlano pochissimi nel mondo.........
purtroppo sono brava nelle pronunce ma nella grammatica devo studiare molto...... e poi pretendo troppo da me...... ma sono fatta così
comunque ti stimo per il fatto delle 3 lingue ...bacio.



@Leyla ti capisco, ma ti faccio i miei complimenti......hai soltanto imperfezioni dovute probabilmente a falsi amici.
( ..... si tu n'a pas compri, je peux traduire...... en franÇais..............)



for the others....... do you need help?

@Bibabella Ciao! Ti capisco benissimo, le lingue sono una passione ed è dura darsi una "regolata"! Il finlandese è una lingua particolarissima, mi piacerebbe approfondirla un giorno! Io nella grammatica vado abbastanza bene, perché ho fatto il Linguistico (e l'ho fatto bene!), ma quello che mi aiuta davvero è la buona memoria! Oltre all'inglese, francese e spagnolo - che conosco bene - mastico anche tedesco e polacco (non faccio x vantarmi, ma solo x condividere questa passione!). Ma la lingua che davvero prima o poi voglio studiare è il Giapponese! è bellissima, particolarissima e...difficilissima!!
Se hai bisogno di aiuto con l'inglese io sono qui!
Ciaociao

sono sfide che ci lanciamo e accettiamo.................. e adoro farlo...... comunque no per ora studio per il delf....riprenderò l'inglese solo quest'estate............. in inghilterra....

comunque mi sei moto simpatico

@bibabella: grazie! Anche tu! a presto!

tu as seulement des imperfections mais tu est trés bon.................