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  1. #1
    Senior Member red_rose's Avatar
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    Question arabic grammar questions

    Hi

    For those experts in the classical arabic grammar here are some questions as this poor soul is confused.

    What is the difference between لم and لن
    they are both for negation but how do we know to use which one?

  2. #2
    Moderator VivaPalestina's Avatar
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    Im not an expert, but heres my explanation. They're both called a7kam nafi, so techniqually they're very similar

    لن is normally followed by a feminine action, something called nafi ilistiqbal
    i.e lan taf3al

    لم is normally followed by a masculine action. 7okm nafi for past and singular verbs
    i.e lam yaf3al

    Makes any sense?

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  4. #3
    Senior Member red_rose's Avatar
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    wow gosh who was ur teacher?! mashaAllah impressive.

    I was confused thought lan was for future actions that had not yet occured...! dont ask where i got that from.

  5. #4
    Moderator VivaPalestina's Avatar
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    If you really want to know...

    Al Najah saturday school run by Mayfair on the behalf of Qatar

    There arent set rules I think, so my argument is probably flawed, but its how I tend to think of it.

    Lan ya7san - wont happen (future) so yours works too!

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  7. #5
    Senior Member Oriee's Avatar
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    Hey how are you girls...

    I'd like to make some correction regarding لم & لن usage...
    Oh my God Viva what have just done! You're a great translator, but....
    Yani as far as I know Arabic & its grammar, this is the first time I hear about hte relation between particles of negation and gender.
    Oh my God you shocked me


    لن: is for negating things or actions in future time, whlie
    لم: is for negating things or actions that alerdy happened in past
    In both cases you use verbs in present time


    هذا لن يحدث this won't happen
    هذا لم ي حدث this didn't happen
    الطفل لن يأكل طعامه: The child (boy) will not eat his food
    الطفل لم يأكل طعامه: The child (boy) didn't eat his food
    الطفلة لن تأكل طعامها: The child (girl) won't eat her food
    الطفلة لم تأكل طعامها: The child (girl) didn't eat her food
    أنا لم افعل ذلك: I didn't do that
    أنا لن أفعل ذلك: I won't do that

    Wish you the best All
    لا يَشْكُرُ الله مَنْ لا يَشْكُرُ النَّاس
    The One Who Doesn't Thank Others, Doesn't Thank God

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  9. #6
    Moderator VivaPalestina's Avatar
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    Ooops Sorry Rose Oriee to the rescue!

  10. #7
    Senior Member red_rose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VivaPalestina View Post
    Ooops Sorry Rose Oriee to the rescue!
    guess that al najah place wasnt all that after all...

  11. #8
    Senior Member citlalli's Avatar
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    Sorry for sticking my nose here!

    I guess Rose may already know this, but just in case:

    -after lan the verb takes fatha at the end
    -after lam it takes sukkun (although there are some exceptions)
    “If cats looked like frogs we'd realize what nasty, cruel little bastards they are. Style. That's what people remember.” ― Terry Pratchett.

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  13. #9
    Moderator VivaPalestina's Avatar
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    Oh no dont blame madrast ilnajah! They told me the right bits, i.e 7okm nafi, nafi istiqbal for lan and past and singular nafi for lam. That part matches Oriee's descripion. The masculine/feminine thing was my own initiative Never take your own initiative Or at least not mine, I have crazy ideas

    But hey, Oriee's around to teach us and save the day! Our hero

  14. #10
    Senior Member Oriee's Avatar
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    Absolutely correct and thank you teacher for your great addition
    لا يَشْكُرُ الله مَنْ لا يَشْكُرُ النَّاس
    The One Who Doesn't Thank Others, Doesn't Thank God

  15. #11
    Senior Member red_rose's Avatar
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    how do we know when to use ما and when to use ليس

    they are both use to negate the jumla ismiyyah right (nominal sentences)... but how do we know when to use which one.

  16. #12
    Senior Member Oriee's Avatar
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    I've been searching since last week to find a good way to explain this issue...

    First you should know the difference between الجملة الإسمية والجملة الفعلية
    - فالجملة الأسمية: (Nominal Phrase) is the sentence that begins with noun (any kind of noun).
    like:
    الجو حار
    الولد يركض
    الصبي نائم
    أحمد يلعب مع أصدقائه
    - وأما الجملة الفعلية: (Verbal Clause) is the sentence that begins with a verb
    like:
    ذهبت إلى السوق مع صديقتي
    يغادر القطار بعد برهة من الزمن

    Now for ليس, it's only used wiht Nominal Clauses.
    ليست الوردة متفتحة
    ليس أحمد من فعلها
    ليس الدرس صعبا
    While ما is used for both Verbal Clauses as well as Nominal Clause
    ما تفتحت الوردة
    ما درست الدرس
    ما يضيق حق وراءه مطالب
    It has the same meaning when it's used with nominal clauses, ie: has the same meaning
    ما الوردة متفتحة
    ما الدرس صعب

    I hope I helped
    لا يَشْكُرُ الله مَنْ لا يَشْكُرُ النَّاس
    The One Who Doesn't Thank Others, Doesn't Thank God

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  18. #13
    Senior Member red_rose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citlalli View Post
    Sorry for sticking my nose here!

    I guess Rose may already know this, but just in case:

    -after lan the verb takes fatha at the end
    -after lam it takes sukkun (although there are some exceptions)
    o my gosh, ur not sticking ur nose in. i love all the help i get its so appreciated

  19. #14
    Senior Member red_rose's Avatar
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    ok in a arabic sentence, when the verb starts the sentence off... does that verb always have to be either masculine singular or feminine singular?

  20. #15
    Senior Member citlalli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by red_rose View Post
    ok in a arabic sentence, when the verb starts the sentence off... does that verb always have to be either masculine singular or feminine singular?
    Hi Red Rose

    Yes always
    “If cats looked like frogs we'd realize what nasty, cruel little bastards they are. Style. That's what people remember.” ― Terry Pratchett.

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  22. #16
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    red_rose, Arabic is one of the languages whose verbs are gender- and number-specific, this means that verbs in Arabic are always formed according to both the gender and number of the subject(s) of the sentence, or even the gender and number of the object(s) if it was the passive voice

    for example (don't mind the "tashkeel"):

    "Huwa yal3ab al-kura." (Means "He plays soccer.") << Here, "yal3ab" is used specifically because the subject is masculine and singular

    it does not matter whether u r gonna start the sentence using the verb or not, the verb anywhere will be gender- and number-specific

    in the same example, if u start with the verb "Yal3ab huwa al-kura.", the same

    this feature of Arabic is very useful because it reduces ambiguity, however, there is some stuff that is still ambiguous in Arabic, for example, the verb "tal3ab" can both mean "you play" (short of "anta tal3ab") or "she plays" (short of "hiya tal3ab"), in this case the context will tell which one u mean, but in case it does not the speaker must add the subject to clarify

    hope this helps

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  24. #17
    Moderator VivaPalestina's Avatar
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    Len - I think the placement of the verb does matter, its always better to start a sentance with the verb, for example, the boy is playing with the ball

    alwald yal3ab bilkora (here the noun starts --> its weaker)
    yal3ab alwalad bilkora (starts with the verb, much stronger)


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  26. #18
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    yeah this is right VivaPalestina, but this is in case Arabic is used rhetorically or in official writing, but if u r just using Arabic as a language to communicate, u can use both

    in Arabic slang in all countries, we never start with the verb, unless we r stressing the action

    nice to talk to u

  27. #19
    Moderator VivaPalestina's Avatar
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    You too dear I only mentioned it because I know warde is trying to learn classical arabic

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  29. #20
    Senior Member Oriee's Avatar
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    Talking Different Oppinion

    Quote Originally Posted by citlalli View Post
    Hi Red Rose

    Yes always
    Let's try making sentences to see... eventhough I agree totally with dearest cici's reply.

    يلعب الأولاد في الخارج.
    يساعد الولدان اباهما.
    تدرس الطالبات دروسهن.
    تشاهد الفتاتان التلفاز.
    أعمل في الصباح الباكر.
    نخرج في المساء سويًأ.

    Ok, so what I noticed with you guys, that Yes, they start mostly with sing. fem/masc. if you are using ضمائر الغائب which are (هو هي هما هم هن), but if you are using ضمائر المتكلم which are (أنا، نحن), the situation changes to either أ if I am who is speaking, or ن if we are speaking.

    لا يَشْكُرُ الله مَنْ لا يَشْكُرُ النَّاس
    The One Who Doesn't Thank Others, Doesn't Thank God

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