General translation issues in Greek language

@ maria

I always find it hard to translate agapi and erotas which in english both mean love, so I came up with this translation.

I like the meanings you gave to agapi and erotas.

I like also the word ,,λατρεύω" (I adore) ; it might encompass both agapi and erotas? So ,,σε λατρεύω" with both agapi and erotas ?

Hello,

Originally Posted by geomac

@ maria

I like the meanings you gave to agapi and erotas.

I like also the word ,,λατρεύω" (I adore) ; it might encompass both agapi and erotas? So ,,σε λατρεύω" with both agapi and erotas ?

Though I am not maria () I shall try to answer your question. Actually there are quite a few synonyms for love in english, although their use is restricted by the context each time. For instance, "έρωτας" can be conveyed as "amour" or passion and "αγάπη" as affection or romance. Also, another option for "έρωτας" is "affair" (δεσμός), though this is not the rule. There can be periphrasis too, such as "college sweetie" for "φοιτητικός έρωτας" etc.

As for "λατρεύω", I doubt weather it can encompass both the meanings of "αγάπη" και "έρωτας". To my understaning, it is more like a more intense, "powerful" if you will, version of "αγαπώ". Also, "adore" should be differentiated from "worship", which has clearly religious connotations (A notable exception being Stanisi's σουξε "Σ' έχω κάνει Θεό"). EDIT: Here it is: Link

Generally speaking, emotions are (one of) the hardest chapters in language translation, IMHO.

Best regards,

Alexander.

Originally Posted by BleakHeart

As for "λατρεύω", I doubt weather it can encompass both the meanings of "αγάπη" και "έρωτας".

Actually I disagree with you! Λατρεύω encompass both the meanings of αγάπη and έρωτας, depends on how they're used.

Originally Posted by BleakHeart

To my understaning, it is more like a more intense, "powerful" if you will, version of "αγαπώ".

Λατρεύω has many meanings and uses, the one you gave above is only one of them.

~ λατρεύω
1. υπεραγαπώ κπ (I'm fond of sb)
Λατρεύω τους γονείς μου
2. μου αρέσει κτ πολύ (I like sth verz much)
Λατρεύω τη μουσική
3. νιώθω σφοδρό πάθος για κπ (I feel intense passion for sb)
Τον λατρεύω

Geomac I hope it's more clear

Originally Posted by maria_gr

Λατρεύω has many meanings and uses, the one you gave above is only one of them.

Actually I had in mind something like this, for instance, where λατρεύω is clearly used as kind of comparative (συγκριτικός βαθμός) of αγαπώ (very first sentence): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVTU8x9f1aE

Other than that, I would not use it as a substitute for "έρωτας", somehow I find it inadequate and inappropriate to convey its meaning, but that's just me! I guess this is why translating emotions is so hard, because of the high degree of subjectivity...

Best regards,

Alexander.

Originally Posted by BleakHeart

Other than that, I would not use it as a substitute for "έρωτας", somehow I find it inadequate and inappropriate to convey its meaning, but that's just me! I guess this is why translating emotions is so hard, because of the high degree of subjectivity...

Best regards,

Alexander.

I will just repeat your words I would not use it....
You wouldn't use it as a substitute of erotas but others would do, because it's one of the 3 interpretations for latreuw. Open a dictionary and I'm sure you'll read the same

Good morning Maria,

don't get me wrong, but in none of my greek-to-greek dictionaries can I find such an interpretation (I still may be wrong though, I don't have ALL the dictionaries!). Perhaps you mean something else? The closest interpretation returns as λατρεύω--->υπέραγαπώ, which of course makes sense. When you "λατρεύεις" someone, you don't just "αγαπάς" him, it's something more, and beyond that.

Just for the record though, I did found an other option, "λατρεία", which can easily be used as an alternative to "έρωτας", but not in English (Englishmen don't say "Oh, my worship" AFAIC), while in Greek, it's not used with its literal meaning.

Best regards,

Alexander

I still believe you are wrong but everyone here is free to say his opinion. It is your opinion and I respect it but it doesn't mean it's correct. After all geomac asked for true meaning and not our opinions.
If he asked about my opinion, I would agree with you and tell him that I wouldn't use it as substitute of erotas. But when you teach Greek language you don't say your opinion, you just say how IT IS. If we were talking about Greek literature or we were trying to intepret a poem, then yes we could all share our opinions and interpretations.
But you insist so much on your opinion like you are a teacher... you really made me curious so I'll ask my professor in university.

If you think I insist too much, I'm sorry, I'll just back off then.

Either way, I feel it would be very boring if all members were to agree on everything. Even more so when it comes to subjective matters, such as translating emotions. Because at the end of the day, words are pointless. A sincere look in the eyes is disarming as well as universal and needs no translation...

Best regards,

Alexander.

Originally Posted by BleakHeart

If you think I insist too much, I'm sorry, I'll just back off then.

Either way, I feel it would be very boring if all members were to agree on everything. Even more so when it comes to subjective matters, such as translating emotions. Because at the end of the day, words are pointless. A sincere look in the eyes is disarming as well as universal and needs no translation...

Best regards,

Alexander.

What I tried to say is that the Grammar and meaning of the words in a language is like Mathematics: 1+1=2, there's no subjectivity in this matter. I'm sorry I insist so much as well (I can be a real pain in the *** sometimes ) but I happen to know about this and when I know something I don't change my mind what if the world comes upside down .

I agree that life would be way too boring if we all shared the same opinion. Everybody has his own personality and this makes us unique.
I also agree that words are needless some times. Nowadays we say those words like I love you, I adore you, you're my life all the time, which at the end they seem so empty if they're not coming with the corresponding actions and gestures...

Anyways, have a good day

Originally Posted by maria_gr

What I tried to say is that the Grammar and meaning of the words in a language is like Mathematics: 1+1=2, there's no subjectivity in this matter.

Words do have the same accuracy like mathematics do, its pretty simple and clear.
BUT. 1)Greek words are neither straight forward nor easy to capture and understand.
2)Moreover, words that express emotions have definitely nothing to do with mathematics. Maths have to do with logic, emotions are either παράλογα or άλογα or υπέρλογα.

Μαρία, i am sure your professor will tell you that thing about subjectivity.

regards,
karyatis

thank you , guys , for these explanations. With your help, I've tried to better understand the meanings of erotas, agapi , latraiuw (oh, I forgot laxtarw )

Yet,I was searching further.Look here what I've found:

Αγάπη is the most general kind of love. Your parents, your friends or anybody close to you (including your boyfriend/girlfriend) can call you "Αγάπη μου".
Αγάπη = affection, love http://el.thefreedictionary.com/%CE%...AC%CF%80%CE%B7

Έρωτας is the passionate love that lovers feel for each other. Nobody can call you "Έρωτα μου" except your couple and it's indicating strong passion/desire.
Έρωτας = love, sex http://el.thefreedictionary.com/%CE%...84%CE%B1%CF%82
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I've just edited some statements above... because I didn't agree with them totally.

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Some reflections for my part:

1. erotas = love // making love // falling in love (eroteuomai)
but we are not sure if this kind of love will be accompanied and/or followed by agapi...
so the ,,erotas" may disappear as abruptly as it appeared...

2. agapi = love&affection // true love
Hope the years will not blur this feeling...

3. latraiuw, I think it is occuring from time to time inside the fact of feeling great love for smb. (as a kind of sweet madness, deifying the beloved person , from time to time). That's why in that song the singer says ,,se latraiuw, s'agapw".

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From another perspective, probably ,,erotas" is also one of the pleasant faces of ,,agapi"...
I guess ,,agapi" is more, so including the difficult and unpleasant parts, such as : sorrow, tears, even humiliation.

I.e. like into this beautiful song:

ΓΑΙΤΑΝΟΣ: ΕΤΣΙ ΦΤΙΑΧΝΕΤΑΙ Η ΑΓΑΠΗ

Του έρωτα να κάψεις τα φτερά
κι όταν θα γίνουν στάχτη,
θα γίνουν τ'αμαρτήματα
συγχωρεμένα λάθη.

Και χόρευε και χόρευε και χόρευε
στου ήλιου τις ακτίνες,
μέσα στις μαύρες μέρες σου
να λάμψουν οι ελπίδες.

Ετσι φτιάχνεται η αγάπη,
με καημούς, φωτιές και δάκρυ,
με χαμηλωμένα φώτα
κι άγρια βράδια με ιδρώτα...

Έτσι φτιάχνεται η αγάπη,
με καημούς, φωτιές και δάκρυ,
να κυλιέσαι μες στα χόρτα,
κι αν δε με πιστεύεις ρώτα...

Του έρωτα να κάψεις τα φτερά
κι όταν θα γίνουν στάχτη,
καν' την κλωστή και πέρασ' την
σε ασημένιο αδράχτι.

Και γύριζε και γύριζε και γύριζε
σαν τον αναστενάρη,
μέχρι να δεις πως γίνεσαι
φωτιά και παλικάρι.

Έτσι φτιάχνεται η αγάπη,
με καημούς, φωτιές και δάκρυ,
με χαμηλωμένα φώτα,
κι άγρια βράδια με ιδρώτα...

Έτσι φτιάχνεται η αγάπη,
με καημούς, φωτιές και δάκρυ,
να κυλιέσαι μες στα χόρτα,
κι αν δε με πιστεύεις ρώτα...

Hello,

Originally Posted by geomac

thank you , guys , for these explanations. With your help, I've tried to better understand the meanings of erotas, agapi , latraiuw (oh, I forgot laxtarw )

Lahtarw has not to do with love, it has to do with desire, that's its meaning. Desire, wish, lust. It is just way more powerful than a mere "want".

Some reflections for my part:

....

3. latraiuw, I think it is occuring from time to time inside the fact of feeling great love for smb. (as a kind of sweet madness, deifying the beloved person , from time to time). That's why in that song the singer says ,,se latraiuw, s'agapw".

I think I'll agree with your first two reflections, and additionally, with regard to your third one, I shall add that "latrevo", in my eyes anyway, is more powerful than "agapo", and at the same time, it's different than "erotevomai"... So what Kalliris is saying in the first sentence of "Eisai mpelas" is actually two different things: That he both "agapaei" and "latrevei" his "mpela". I think it's a clear case of the differentiation of these two terms, that's why I used it.

Originally Posted by geomac

From another perspective, probably ,,erotas" is also one of the pleasant faces of ,,agapi"...
I guess ,,agapi" is more, so including the difficult and unpleasant parts, such as : sorrow, tears, even humiliation.

I.e. like into this beautiful song:

ΓΑΙΤΑΝΟΣ: ΕΤΣΙ ΦΤΙΑΧΝΕΤΑΙ Η ΑΓΑΠΗ

Του έρωτα να κάψεις τα φτερά
κι όταν θα γίνουν στάχτη,
θα γίνουν τ'αμαρτήματα
συγχωρεμένα λάθη.

"Erotas" actually can have more than one meanings, clearly depending on the surrounging context (τα συμφραζόμενα).

In the case of the song that you mention, it is my understanding that "erotas" does not stand for "passionate love" but for the ancient God of love, Cupid, son of Aphrodite, who was portrayed as a young boy with wings and armed with a bow shooting love arrows.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupid

Other than that, you could say that "erotas", with the sense of passion, is included in the meaning of love, but not vice versa.

+++++++++++++++++++

A few days ago, I had a serious headache, I wanted to translate three songs, all talking about the theme of "illegal love", but all quite different from one another. The results can be found at this collection thread (the 3 first songs):

It was particularly challenging, because there is a multiple use of all terms discussed so far, αγάπη, έρωτας, δεσμός... But since the context was different, the translation could not be identical each time... So I just trusted my instinct, and used whatever option I thought was appropriate while listening to the song, in other words, I just used what I thought the singer was trying to portray.

For instance, Stanisi is performing quite passionately, I couldn't just use "love" as a rendering for "erotas", I prefered "amour" instead, which I think is more powerful...

Best regards,

Alexander.

P.S. It's a good thing this thread is now indepedent, I believe this way we can discuss some interesting translation problems we have come across with and share opinions. Thumbs up!

Hello,

This issue was encountered here: http://www.allthelyrics.com/forum/651696-post6.html

The thing is that there is no real equivalent for "γκόμενος" in english. The closest my dictionaries return, is "boyfriend" and "lover", neither of which is wrong, but in this case, "γκόμενος" has, to my understanding, clear negative sexual connotations, that is, someone who is *used* just for sexual pleasure, or simply shown off by his girlfriend for his good looks, money, power and so on. So I thought "stallion", though graceless, might be a better suited option, since it conveys no emotion whatsoever.

The same would be with the female version, "γκόμενα", I guess, though "stallion" would obviously be a wrong rendering.

In either case, much depends on the surrounding context. For instance, sometimes in order to avoid negative connotations, diminutives can be used, such as "γκομενάκι" and "γκομενίτσα", BUT this is not always the case, diminutives can also be used to add even more negativism.

Best regards,

Alexander.

Originally Posted by BleakHeart

Hello,



Lahtarw has not to do with love, it has to do with desire, that's its meaning. Desire, wish, lust. It is just way more powerful than a mere "want".

Oh, I think you're not perfectly right here, as poets like to use it in describing love. Indeed, it is not referring primary to love, but people's heart very often ,,laxtara" in/for love...

i.e.,, όσο η καρδιά κι αν λαχταρά, δε θα ξαν' αγαπήσω ..."

I think I'll agree with your first two reflections, and additionally, with regard to your third one, I shall add that "latrevo", in my eyes anyway, is more powerful than "agapo", and at the same time, it's different than "erotevomai"... So what Kalliris is saying in the first sentence of "Eisai mpelas" is actually two different things: That he both "agapaei" and "latrevei" his "mpela". I think it's a clear case of the differentiation of these two terms, that's why I used it.

I agree with you here; but we have to be careful with ,,latraivo"; it might become dangerous; we are only humans...

"Erotas" actually can have more than one meanings, clearly depending on the surrounging context (τα συμφραζόμενα).

right

In the case of the song that you mention, it is my understanding that "erotas" does not stand for "passionate love" but for the ancient God of love, Cupid, son of Aphrodite, who was portrayed as a young boy with wings and armed with a bow shooting love arrows.

I have a different opinion here; as the lyrics said about ,,τ'αμαρτήματα" and ,,συγχωρεμένα λάθη" , I concluded that a passionate love can do this kind of things...
Actually I've imagined ,, τα φτερά" in this context as ,,the determination, the overwhelmig energy stirred by the passion"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupid

very interesting ; obviously, many of us have heard of this before, at least in part...

Other than that, you could say that "erotas", with the sense of passion, is included in the meaning of love, but not vice versa.

I think there might exist ,,erotas together with agapi" or ,,erotas without agapi" or ,,agapi without erotas", differently.

It was particularly challenging, because there is a multiple use of all terms discussed so far, αγάπη, έρωτας, δεσμός... But since the context was different, the translation could not be identical each time... So I just trusted my instinct, and used whatever option I thought was appropriate while listening to the song, in other words, I just used what I thought the singer was trying to portray.

For instance, Stanisi is performing quite passionately, I couldn't just use "love" as a rendering for "erotas", I prefered "amour" instead, which I think is more powerful...

I agree

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Now, a very interesting article about ,, The Four Loves " (from a book by C.S.Lewis, mentioned on wikipedia) : ,,Affection (στοργή)" ,,Friendship (φιλία)" ,,Eros=being in love'' (ἔρως) ,,Charity" ( ἀγάπη)

Full explanations here

I'm not saying that I totally agree with those explanations, but they are described quite interestingly...As we said above, love can be felt in such different ways...